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9Marks Explained : A Letter From Mark Dever

Advice on Evangelistic Pre-Marital Counseling?

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Tomorrow night I have an appointment to do pre-marital counseling with a couple of unbelievers. They are nominally Catholic, but aren't very religious. Recently they attended our church (at the invitation of a friend) and heard a sermon on marriage from Proverbs. It freaked them out. Now they want counseling in advance of their rapidly approaching wedding. So, my question: any thoughts on how to proceed? This is my first time in this situation. Being bold about the gospel isn't a problem. That's clearly the end game here. But I don't want to "bait and switch" them. They asked for relationship counseling, and so that's where we'll start. I imagine that that will open a lot of doors into their idolatries and false worship that can be turned to the gospel. But with that said, have any of you guys been in this specific situation? Any resources you'd recommend? Any particular approach you'd take?

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well first I would be interested in knowing what about Proverbs freaked them out. What are they asking of you in the counceling area?

I talk to couples before mariage. we talk about all subjects that will challenge their relationship. Some of the couples actualy called off the mariage. Some were of different faiths (ex. one was Catholic one was Methodist).

What is your goal? Do you have an agenda?

Hi Michael,

I have married a few couples who do not regularly attend church, but who have come to me as a local pastor to help prepare them for marriage. I have found Gordon Cheng's little book "In the sight of God" to be a brilliant resource in this situation. It would work exceptionally well for believers, but it is great for others because Cheng covers the key issues of relationship and looks into the way God has put things together as well as the problems we face. His opening for the last session is brilliant: "All marriages end in sadness". It isn't an evangelistic tract, but it covers all the right areas to get couples talking and thinking about the big issues. You can get the book and a leaders guide from MatthiasMedia.com

Hope that is useful,

Chris

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Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clhitong, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.2 Peter2:1But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.It is important for all old apostolic members to test these spirits. Be aware of them. As you can see, the scriptures warns us that there is a very thin line between the truth and a lie.Let's create this scenario: Tomorrow morning when I wake up, I will claim that I am an apostle sent by Christ. I will take some scriptures and manipulate them to prove that it is possible that the apostleship can be continued by me. I start getting some followers, promising them that they will be an officer for the Lord. In one decade from now, I will be dead, but will have 1 000 s of followers. Now let's ask a couple of questions to the last generation of my followers. Let's ask them who was the initiator of this religion and where did he get his authority from? How can you prove that he is an apostle sent by Christ? If they answer Well i suppose he is gone now to answer that question. , do you think that will change the fact that this religion is genuine or not? No. It won't change anything. It won't change the fact that the founder is a genuine apostle or not. The followers will still continue with this doctrine, because they believe in it and many who are born in this religion will follow the tradition of their forefathers.Is it possible that the scenario above could be what Klibbe did ? I'm not saying it is. I'm asking, could it be possible?

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Jay Adam's "Marriage, Divorce and Re-Marriage is the best thing I've read so far on at the very least defining what these things are. He touches on many a "how to" as well in there. Highly, highly recommend that one.
Praise the Lord they even want to get counsel! Most aren't even getting married! Just living together with no plan of commitment.

can you keep us updated on how it goes(obviously keeping the confidentiality factor in mind)

How can you teach on marriage and not teach as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for her? You can't tell them how to act without setting forth the gospel, the purpose of God's word. To do anything less is robbing God of His glory and using holy things profanely.

Michael,
My advice is to proceed from Genesis--
Start wtih God as Creator in Gen. 1;
God's good design for marriage in Gen. 2;
Ask why that experience ia so rare in marriages today--what is our biggest problem?
Then point them to the problem of sin in Gen. 3--Sin separates--it separates us from God and from one another. Our problem is our focus on Self put in the place of God.
Then unfold the plan of God to deal with sin in the gospel.
This approach begins with their felt need--help to have a happy marriage and leads them to their real need--reconciliation with God through Christ.
I have used this approach with several couples with some good fruit.
Bill Kynes

heya guys, lol first of all i thought that it was funny that no other gen Y perosn has responded to this prob cos we got better things to do but seeings that its sun mornin i can spare 5 mins to give ya some of my thoughts bout this whole gen Y thing. ive been teachin for the past 3 1/2 years in public schools in australia and at the start of my teachin career i think i thought like the rest of the newbie teachers we are gonna change the world and show ppl how to teach and that, then it comes to bout 3 yrs on and u work out that us gen Y ppl really dont fit the mould of a traditional teacher and do like to think outside the box when teaching and the methods we use, then it makes u think well why bother to stay in it if the department of education and government arent gonna change.back to some of the questions that u asked ruby You want to be connected yes very true we like to stay in touch with mates all over the world hence why we enjoy facebook so much.You value the information you get off the Internet as more reliable than the information that you get from older adults yeh i guessYour family is much more important than work of course it is, works just work where as ur family IS YOUR family, of course ur gonna care about them and find them a really important part of ur life i mean they are the ones who helped shape u into the kind of ppl you are today without them, i dunno where or what id be doing now!You won’t sacrifice a perosnal life for a professional one of course not, its where we get to have fun and not treat life so serious. if u cant go out and hang with mates, have a few drinks and lots of laughs, whats the point of life really. im not sayin that i works not important it is but i dont live to work, i work so that i have the cash to live and do fun things ). i perosnally just find it getting harder and harder to keep up wid my mates who arent teachers, they seem to have alot more free time in the evening and especially weekends to do more things, whereas i often hear myself sayin the same old things ohh ive got this marking to do or ohhh i cant come wid ya i gotta plan my lessons for the next day, week etc etc. i think im coming to the stage where i really just want a normal 9am-5pm job where i can leave my work at work.You usually won’t go to trainings on weekends or at night no as i mentioned before, we already are tryin to cram in our social lives enough already, doin T and D on the weekends or in evening is cutting into our social time (and it really is an important time for us)You prefer to have professional development training online yes very much soYou like to multi-task while you do just about anything -lol of course we do cos its quicker, we got lots of things to do so why not do lots of things at once, we are quite good at it lol :O)ur other questions What do you bring that’s new to the teaching environment?a sense of passion, energy and life to teaching. we have new ways of thinking and how to teach, how to connect with the kids and yet still being able to stay in control of your class and teach them stuff. ohh and also we bring a sense of fun to the staff room lolWhat do you dislike about the current teaching environment?teachers who dont like teaching anymore or have lost their passion for it, i mean i know that i will never be the teacher who stays in teaching just cos i need the money or im waiting to get my superannuation lol its just not meand yet still more questions (this is takin much longer than the 5 mins that i first thought lol )What do you like about training? things that are meaninful, fun and relevant to what we are teaching and the environment that we are in.What do you dislike about training and staff development? boring, dull pointless stuff, being stuck inside a room allday, not being able to have any fun.How would you go about changing teaching and learning? create a fun environment where u can still learn new things.What bothers you about Baby Boomers with whom you work? look now lets get this rite, not all babyboomer teachers are the same, some are really really brilliant and ive learnt so very much from watching and talking to them. there are just those who annoy me cos they are over the whole teaching thing so it makes me think just get out if you dont like it anymore, i mean there are plenty of keen teachers who really do want to teach and thatokies hope that helped ya a bitcatchyatina

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I'm definately gontraeien Y. I'm also a vice principal working with administrators and district administrators who are at retirement age. They love to have meetings, long meetings. I wish they'd just email me the info! Some want discipline referrels done with tedious paperwork. I prefer teachers just email me the issue, and I email back what I did to take care of the issue. I wish I could do more at home, I do better late at night or early in the morning. As long as the work gets done, why do I have to work 8-5 in an office? We like to have access to yahoo. We can quickly check email and news websites, multi tasking, while still doing our job. As a gontraeien Y, there are definately differences!

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This is some great advice,thanks for the helpful tips I will try it out.

This is probably late, but we believe the best advice and approach is to immediately lead them to the very author of marriage- Jesus.

While it appears that this may look like a last minute shotgun advice session, the only lasting impact that would be made is to lead them to the XFactor of a successful marriage. Without Christ, all advice will go down the drain.

Whether they like it or not, they need to be brought to the crossroads of Christ.

Without this reality, all advice will simply go in one ear and out the other.

At least with Jesus, a hard decision will need to be made.

Decisions like "Should we even get married", "Am I marrying the right person?", "Do we really want Christ to be the center of our marriage?".

It's the very identity of Christ that will make or break a marriage.

If this wisdom is not shared, everything else is just happy-go-lucky advice that will crumble for better or for worse.

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Steadfast Member:You keep making false stnemetats about me and interested reader. No one ever said that you alter scriptures. I said you read it out of context and interpret it the wrong way.There are thousands of scriptures that is written in a spiritual meaning, for instance the examples you used in the above post. I agree and i am sure that there are more than 90% of saints out there that believes that John 3:5, John 4:24 and many other scriptures are meant spiritually.The difference is that not all people believe that the Bible is completely spiritual. Some scriptures are spiritual and some is as it written. Former OAC Member, you should know better than to twist the truth . I am not twisting any truth my friend. God is the judge of he who is telling a lie here and I tell you the truth, I am a God-fearing man. I live for the truth.You are not teaching what Jesus commanded. Many of the things you preach are scriptural. I am not saying you twist or alter the scriptures. What I am saying is that not everything you preach and teach is scriptural. I will not make any examples of what it is you do and not do according to scriptures, because to you it seems that I am trying to expose the OAC and wronfully or falsely accuse the OAC. I am suprised you did'nt pull the don't judge card on me. Look at what the verse below says:2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, REBUKING, CORRECTING and training in righteousness, Why do you make The Gospel so complicated? It is simple as it is written in the following summary:We were sinners, because of this we don't have a relationship with God. God sent His Son, to die for our sins. Whoever hears this Good News, believe it, confess , repent, is baptized and live faithfully keeping His commands will be saved. As easy as that. This is the Gospel in a summary. It is simple for any one to understand who reads the scriptures.I have been trying to explain to you that we should take this off line and do the personal bible study, but you tried to stop me and accused me of having more authority over the scriptures. My friend if we do a Bible study, we look at what the Bible says and not you and my opinions. Let's do this. I am in the Goodwood area in the Western Cape. Where are you?

Confused Old Apostolic Member:I agree with you 100%. You will know them by their fruits. In my case some of them were inprtereted a prophecy incorrectly. The Bible warns us about this. In one case, even an APOSTLE of the church gave false testimony and false prophecy. How does that work? I thought they were men sent by God? Does God make mistakes?I think it is time that we communicate off this blog. I would like to introduce to you a FREE correspondence Bible study course. There are also a lot of other material I can share with you that covers the following topics: Is the Bible the true Word of God? , Did God really create this world in 7 days? , Evolution vs God, The Only way to Salvation, What must I do to get saved? Denominational churches, The history of Islam, and many more.You can send me an email to and we can take it from there.RegardsFormer Old Apostolic Member

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OAC Member Unless somebody can prdvioe me with a natural meaning as opposed to a spiritual meaning for the following text versus then I will always continue to see the scriptures spiritually.John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Hi, can you please explain how do you worship God in spirit and in truth? Former OAC, if you felt that an Apostle gave false testimony is this necessarily a bad thing? Sure, it’s not uplifting or motivating but if what your saying is true then I think it is positive as the prophetic gift within you has awakened and allowed you to discern that as the spirit of error. If we were all perfect then we would never have to distinguish between right and wrong. Not false testimony, false prophesy:2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?God can not lie nor can He be wrong. If a person claims to be a prophet or that they are able to prophesy, he must be 100% accurate because what he says does not come from him but God.

member OAC, i really need some privcay with you.my email is . concerning the issue of salvation, The Lord has shown himself to those people who question just because they dont want to hear that they are in error.It reminds me of a story.there was this frog living under water and has never set foot outside the water.one day another frog visited this frog and told it that there was a bigger place than this dam. the frog said no way!this is the biggest and nicest place ever.' the other frog asked why?'. because i have lived here for a long time and i know what im talking about'. this confirms the saying that in a community of blindmen, the one eyed is a hero.such people exist today and call themselves christians. when you read acts 2 you find that the church endured in the teachings of the apostles (which are not according to men or cleverness but are according to the will of God).how can they be christians if they cant endure in the teaching that there is only one God, one Spirit, one Hope and one Church.i can assure you that the Lord is fighting a winning battle against the hearts of these people.

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Former OAC Member:Where in Genesis and/or throughout the bible is there any eviecnde to substantiate a physical creation?You say that there is proof? Where is the proof? Even the geniuses throughout history have not been able to universally agree on how the physical creation took place so what makes you think that you have the answer?The bible is a guideline to soul salvation and how we should live our lives today. How does preaching about the creation in a physical sense help our souls or have any relevance to how we live our lives today? Did the Apostles ever preach to the world about how a physical creation took place? I think the answer is quite clear based in this text verse, Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.How is it possible to have light and day in first day when it is only on the third day that God made the greater light (the sun) to rule the day? If you try to read and understand the creation naturally it does not make sense.In the OAC, we believe the creation is a spiritual understanding. Or in other words, the birth of a spiritual understanding. Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Is the light that is being discussed in versus 19-21 natural light? In the OAC light is to understand the word and darkness is to not understand. Light can only come through the flow of testimony (the water) which cleanses us and allows us to see the truth. Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.Please be aware that I am only explaining this from an OAC perspective and how we see the light. If people have a different understanding then by all means go ahead. We do not go around preaching on a Pedder stool acting is if we are no-it-alls, we only give our perspective. In my humble opinion though, in the context of the creation, a spiritual creation makes more sense to me.Former OAC Member, let me ask you, does your proof that you allegedly have about the creation carry more weight than the bible? Regards,Steadfast OAC Member

I hope everything went alright with the couple

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