Episode 128: On When Elders Disagree (with Matt Schmucker)
How can we best handle disagreements among pastors? During this episode of Pastors Talk Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Matt Schmucker discuss how to approach dissent between elders. Learn about different types of disagreements that might arise in your church and how to address each kind in a manner that promotes healthy, edifying discussion among leaders.
- Types of Disagreement Within the Church
- What to Do When Elders Disagree
- How Much Disagreement is Healthy?
- How to Disagree Well
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Mark Dever:
Hey friends, Jonathan Leeman recently started Pastoring in a Pandemic, a daily conversation to help pastors and churches during COVID-19. He’s chatted with Tom Schreiner about how to understand pandemics biblically and theologically.
He’s talked to Conrad Mbewe about how COVID-19 has exposed the lie of the prosperity gospel. He’s talked to Tim Chalice about how we can preserve unity amidst all the conspiracies and disagreements and more.
You can find all of these conversations on our covid19.9marks.org website, and you can subscribe to them as a podcast, pastoring in a pandemic, at least for the month of May, it will update daily. Thanks. God bless.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, I’m Jonathan Leeman and I’m here with my friend Mark Dever, who’s the pastor of the Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC. And welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more…
Mark Dever:
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s it. And he shows up. Thanks for coming, Mark.
Mark Dever:
Thanks for having me.
Jonathan Leeman:
To your own show, your own podcast, whatever this is. And with us, we have a special friend, the founding executive director of 9Marks, Matt Schmucker. Matt also helps Mark out with T4G.
He served, what, 10 and a half years or so on and off as an elder at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. He’s also served as an elder at Anacostia River Church and has lots of experience on the topic of today, which is, what do we do when elders disagree?
Mark Dever:
I’ve been an elder at Eden Baptist Church in Cambridge, England.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, you have.
Mark Dever:
And at New Meadows Baptist Church in Topsfield, Massachusetts.
Jonathan Leeman:
Where you were a pastor.
Mark Dever:
What about you, Jonathan?
Jonathan Leeman:
Let’s see, I was an elder at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. I’m presently an elder at Cheverly Baptist Church. I’ve served as an interim pastor. I don’t know if that counts, but you’re acting in an elder-like function at a couple of different churches.
Mark Dever:
Did you go to elders’ meetings there?
Jonathan Leeman:
I sure did.
Mark Dever:
Did you vote there?
Jonathan Leeman:
I sure did.
Mark Dever:
Brother, you were an elder. What were those churches?
Jonathan Leeman:
Grand Cayman.
Mark Dever:
Any particular church there?
Jonathan Leeman:
Baptist Church.
Mark Dever:
First Baptist Church of Grand Cayman.
Types of Disagreement Within the Church
Jonathan Leeman:
First Baptist Church of Grand Cayman and then Third Avenue Baptist Church in Louisville. So there it is. Yeah, like I said, I want to talk about when elders disagree. Just this week, a brother at another church was asking me, hey, we’re going into a contentious elders meeting.
I think we’re going to disagree on this really tough. It was a discipline slash abuse case situation. Just, you know, some of the toughest stuff elders have to deal with. And he saw both sides disagreeing with one.
He knew there was kind of two basically entrenched sides and he was on one side and he was like, what do we do? And we disagree. So I think this is a, I was like, we’ve never had a pastor’s talk on that.
That’s strange because it is a frequent thing that we have to encounter as elders. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to assume the plurality of elders. Okay. We’re going to assume our present structure, which is plurality.
You might have a senior pastor, but he has one vote like the rest. And of course, there are different kinds of disagreements. We have doctrinal disagreements, you have personal disagreements, you have a philosophy of ministry disagreements, you have, in some ways, what I think is the most difficult would be kind of temperamental disagreements like this guy’s just always leaning towards the most careful conservative position we can take, and this guy’s always leaning in the opposite direction.
So you have different kinds of disagreements. I assume we’re mostly talking about doctrinal disagreements. I’m assuming we’re all on the same page doctrinally, okay?
Mark Dever:
And probably wouldn’t you say usually philosophy of ministry? Because if there’s much disagreement on the philosophy of ministry, you’re probably not going to be an elder in that congregation, at least here at CHBC and other churches I know.
Though there may be disagreement, I think it’s better we do that, better we not do that. The general mindset about ministry is something that seems to be shared among the elders, and one’s participation in that happily is one of the ways that one is I think identified as an elder.
Disagreeing About Philosophy of Ministry
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, let’s put that forward as a proposition, which is when you’re bringing on new elders, one place of expected agreement should be not just theology, but philosophy of ministry.
Mark Dever:
I think so, or else you’re just going to be barking up the tree
Yeah, going upstream on everything. So I think just matters of prudence would lead you to believe that it’s better to have agreement on the philosophy of ministry.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right, good.
Mark Dever:
Now, you can encounter new questions that haven’t arisen before.
Jonathan Leeman:
Of course.
Mark Dever:
Some of those might be significant enough that you as an eldership take like a special day away or have a special series of conversations over how should we view Bible City Fellowship.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
Or some parachurch ministry. Or, yeah, that’s right. And those are fine questions for Christians to think about and think carefully.
And yeah, you may have disagreements on that. But the basic idea of how ministry is approached at your church I would think you’d be supportive of it if you’re coming on as an elder at that church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. But can you give us a couple of examples? Matt, sorry, I was actually going to start with you, but Mark, you knocked on a helpful door here. Can you give us a couple of examples of what you mean by that?
So if I’m the elder board and we’re considering a new guy, what’s a philosophy ministry example that might make you pause and say, oh, maybe not? What are we talking about?
Mark Dever:
Well, if someone is quite loudly committed to the fact that, basically small group leaders are your proto elders everybody needs to be in a small group and they need to see the elders only after they’ve talked to their small group leader. And that’s a little bit of, you might have to screen out that among the elders, but that would be a kind of philosophy of ministry that I’ve seen typical of some very large churches that I would have maybe even some theological reasons to have questions about. Maybe that’s too specific an example.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, no, that’s the kind of thing I’m looking for. Like what’s in that bucket?
What Happens When Your Church Disagrees About Evangelism?
Mark Dever:
Should the preaching be prominent in your services? Should you have services that are… Is your main gathering on Sunday aimed primarily at evangelistically?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Should you use an attractional model of evangelism? So for example, Rick Warren and I, as far as I know, have the same understanding of the gospel.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
But Rick has for 30 years championed a kind of attractional model of church growth. The local church that I think is lacking biblically and I think distorts what the local church should be.
I don’t think ill of Rick at all because of that. I think the Lord used him, but he and I would not very easily serve on the same eldership together at the local church.
We just have too many disagreements to predictably down along the way. And I would just say it’s a Paul, it’s a Paul Barnabas kind of thing. Brothers just separate and serve. Fruitfully with those who agree with you on that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Don’t turn it in, so are you saying he’s not qualified? No, I’m not saying he’s not qualified. I’m just saying why pick fights when you don’t have to?
Maybe best in different. Sure. That said, Mark, do brothers who inherit churches with present elder boards do sometimes find themselves with an admixture of perspectives on the philosophy of ministry? And there you… I guess do your best to work through those disagreements, which kind of brings us to our topic at hand. Matt, what do you do?
What to Do When Elders Disagree
Matt Schmucker:
It’s not lost on me that you brought me in as a guest for this subject, given my gift of spiritual discouragement.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, no. But you do have long experience at several churches.
Matt Schmucker:
So on Mark’s point then, if you’re, so you have to kind of triage the disagreements, right? So it’s not theological. There’s a strong sense of agreement on the philosophy of ministry, then.
Are you saying, Mark, that most of your problems lie in a third category? All right, so give an example of that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Mark’s nodding his head, but nobody can see that. So I’m broadcasting, he’s nodding his head.
Matt Schmucker:
So now you’re talking about where you spend money? Do you plant 40 minutes out or do you plant 20 minutes out?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, or even much more practically, what will really take up the time in your elder’s meetings are how you deal with pastoral cases. and conclusions about pastoral cases. That’s where in my experience…
Jonathan Leeman:
should we bring this guy who’s struggling with a porn addiction into membership in the church as he’s confessing it?
Mark Dever:
Should we discipline this man for being abusive? Should we put this person out of the church for non-attendance? Should we discipline this person for alcoholism?
Matt Schmucker:
So serious.
Mark Dever:
For abuse of alcohol regularly?
Matt Schmucker:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, so there are going to be matters upon which all the elders will want the same thing, but there’s a question about how we practically get there. And there can be honest disagreement between brothers about what is the best way forward.
Apply Biblical Principles in Disagreements
Jonathan Leeman:
But what makes it so challenging is in all of those examples you just gave, we come to the conclusions we do based on our sense of how biblical principles apply to life. So we’re feeling this kind of biblical principles animating our position, right?
Even though we’re making judgment calls about what’s necessary for now, we’re feeling the Bible behind it. But then I find that personality gets caught up in it. This guy over there, man, he just always seems to land on a different page than me.
And there are other things, these things about him that sort of annoy me too, frankly, I don’t, I think he’s kind of a jerk in conversations or I think he’s, he speaks too much. So you have this, this strange mix of both, are these biblical differences that I have with together with personal things that build up over time.
And I think that’s what that’s part of what makes this such a difficult topic. Fair to say.
Mark Dever:
Not exactly. If I knew an elder was having those internal conversations in his mind, I would probably.
Jonathan Leeman:
That guy’s a jerk. He speaks too much.
Mark Dever:
I would probably ask him to step off the elder board.
Jonathan Leeman:
You never think to yourself he speaks too much.
Mark Dever:
Well, I don’t…
Jonathan Leeman:
You never get annoyed with another elder.
Mark Dever:
I don’t think it was a tone that you were just having that internal dialogue with.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Unanimity within Elderships
Mark Dever:
You were making that sound like the common way that he responds to that person. So I think if one of the reasons, one topic we haven’t gone to is unanimity because the way a lot of, a lot of elderships get around this is just to require unanimity on everything.
So that would be a natural part of this conversation. But while our eldership doesn’t do that, the one area that we’re closest to doing that in is requirements for somebody stepping on as a new elder, and being nominated to the congregation.
And we effectively require unanimity on that. And the reason we do this is exactly so you won’t have to. Thoughts of the one elder about the other, he always blah, blah, blah in some dismissive way of them.
I don’t think you can afford to give the enemy that kind of in. It’s one thing to disagree with a brother or disagree with a brother often. It’s another thing because of that to begin having a kind of conclusion about their lack of good judgment in particular areas that are significant for the eldership.
Matt Schmucker:
So, posture, your own posture is important as you go into an elders meeting or if you join an elders board. I think of a couple of verses, Galatians 6:3, “If anyone thinks he has something when he has nothing, he deceives himself”.
Or Philippians 2:3, “Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourself”. Paul talked about in Romans 14, not to despise or judge each other over matters of conscience.
Instead, I love the word. Welcome each other, even if you disagree, you still, need to be your posture. So to your point, Jonathan, if you’re finding your posture always back up.
Jonathan Leeman:
Darkening.
Matt Schmucker:
Yeah. Then I think you do have a problem that needs to be examined.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And it’s kind of independent on whether or not that judgment is actually right of the other person. You may actually be correct in your analysis of the other person, but that’s either reason for them not to be an elder or not for you not to be an elder because you can’t have those kinds of dismissive attitudes. Toward other elders.
How To Deal With Conflict Between Elders
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Let me, you know, stand here and speak on behalf of other immature, like easily bothered people like me. There’s a guy, this is hypothetical, but based on past experience, there’s a guy who has the pattern of his decisions, I kind of said this before, let me fill it out a bit.
It’s just, he’s always so careful. He’s I think too careful and everything that we might do as a church. Any risk we might take. Never once, he veers towards carefulness.
I trust his motives. I think he’s godly, but it just frustrates me the way he always veers towards what I perceive to be extreme carefulness. Okay, what do I do with that?
Can I not work with him? Do I step down? Do I ask him to step down?
It’s… It’s living in this middle land of not doctrinal, not philosophy of ministry. It’s what I said before, kind of temperamental.
Matt Schmucker:
I experienced something in that for years with one brother who, I’m a taskless kind of guy. I like to get things done, check it off, move on, don’t even delay.
But his posture, especially when he saw things kind of going against his position, he would kind of move toward delaying. It almost felt that, you know, kind of political, if you will.
And after a while, you started to see the routine and you were just, in that situation, what I had to do was close my mouth and trust the other brothers. I’m not the only one at that table.
Don’t trust myself. If I’m kind of if I’m personally being annoyed there, I just need to kind of close down. And if we delay, it’s because the other brothers at the table saw wisdom.
If we move along, it’s because the other brothers at the table saw wisdom. So don’t try to manage it all by yourself.
How Should New Elders Contribute?
Mark Dever:
I was having a conversation recently with an elder who was asking for my evaluation of his eldering. And he was at the time, he was a new elder on the board and I affirmed his silence.
I just, I just said that look, it’s, you’re being silent has been useful for you listening and learning what it’s like to serve as an elder here. And I think it’s been wise. It doesn’t mean you would never speak.
It doesn’t mean you may even speak more as you’re on longer. But sometimes when somebody comes on an eldership and then begins talking a lot, at least when you have a larger eldership as we do, that doesn’t speak a lot of wisdom and humility to sort of learn what’s going on and then how you can make a useful contribution.
So I think a lot of what you do when you become an elder is like you were just saying, Matt, is you… you trust the Lord’s work and the other guys there. You trust that your wisdom is going to be supplemented or even replaced sometimes with the better wisdom of the other brothers. You have a clarity of sight on something that you don’t have.
Matt Schmucker:
I’ve grabbed more than one young and new elder and said, just come on the board and be quiet. I know you’re qualified, so you can speak, but you need to catch up on the conversations. Yeah.
But even for myself, after I took my first sabbatical after six years of service, I decided coming back on the board that I would also be quiet for six months. Not that I never responded, but generally, I just assumed I was having been off for a year or so.
I was uninformed, and I needed to catch up on the discussion. So be quiet. That’ll quiet down the disagreements, probably.
What Qualifies You as a Leader?
Mark Dever:
And also, what qualifies you as an elder, at least to begin with? It’s the ministry you’re not having in those meetings. It’s the ministry you’re having among the people of the congregation.
It’s the ministry you’re having in teaching God’s Word. So if you look at those qualifications in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3, those are the things in your home, in your relationships, in your discipling, in the various ways you teach God’s Word, and in your reputation with outsiders.
They have nothing to do with elders’ discussions. So those qualifications are really, in many ways, the core of your ministry as an elder. And those things you pursue, even when you might have a disagreement on a particular pastoral matter, what to do next with some other elders.
Should Elders Have Diverse Perspectives?
Jonathan Leeman:
I appreciate your pushing the quietness of elders as they come on, but to push in a slightly opposite direction, something else I’ve seen you do well, Mark, is promoting a kind of diversity of perspectives and not wanting to have, well, you want yes men when it comes to doctrinal. You want agreement when it comes to the philosophy of ministry.
Mark Dever:
Don’t say yes, man, because that sounds insincere.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, you’re right. But you do –
Mark Dever:
You want all Trinitarians on the board.
Jonathan Leeman:
Of course.
Mark Dever:
Not because there’s a sword in the throat and you have to believe in the Trinity, I’m going put this through your throat, but you actually all think God is a triune being.
Jonathan Leeman:
Of course.
How Much Disagreement is Healthy?
Jonathan Leeman:
Taking that, yes, maybe I shouldn’t have taken it for granted, but yes. I also see you wanting people to disagree with you and allow for some disagreement on the elder board, and there’s a certain health of disagreement on the board. So I guess here’s my question, brothers.
What’s the balance? How much disagreement is healthy, or not healthy? How do we think through that? What kinds of disagreements are acceptable?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think we’ve already said doctrinal, depending on what we’re talking about is we want a lot of unity there. Philosophy of ministry, we want a lot of unity there.
Alberto and I are both elders in the same congregation right now, and we have just recently had a divided vote. But I’m not worried about that at all because it’s a very unusual situation.
I don’t perceive a principle at stake really in either direction. I think the vote could have gone either way. It was a matter of prudence and wisdom. I don’t even remember, brother, if we voted the same way.
Yeah, so I think there’s a lot of space for, I think it’s healthy for there to be a lot of space for disagreements. When you’re not dealing with a principle per se, just someone’s conclusion, what should be done in a particular case?
Jonathan Leeman:
Because not only have you said to young men, be quiet for a while, you’ve also said to men afterward, hey, you should not be worried about disagreeing with me.
Mark Dever:
Oh, certainly. Yeah. And that’s particularly me as the senior pastor. You know, if I saw somebody who was always disagreeing with anything Alberto said, that would bug me.
You know, like, what do you have about Alberto? What’s going on with that? But because their tendency is going to be to want to agree with me, then I’m just aware that’s a particularly, if we’re going to have a group of elders that aren’t yes men, that really are trying to think well themselves, then they need to be particularly sharp in their ability to know when they can disagree with the main preacher.
Should Elders be Argumentative?
Matt Schmucker:
I often say at Weekenders, that you really don’t want contrarians, people who will just by default by nature be the devil’s advocate. There’s enough spiritual warfare going on inside of your church that’s seen and unseen and enough going on within the elders.
Satan’s a divider. And we’re told in 1 Corinthians 1 that there to be no divisions among you, to have the same mind. So again, that posture is extremely important.
The Nature of Arguments is More Important than the Number
Mark Dever:
Well, and that posture presumes the Holy Spirit is at work, that it is His church, He is leading, He’s indwelling us, and therefore we’re not surprised that if we do have the mind of Christ, there will be a lot of agreement.
So I kind of care less about the number of disagreements, I care more about nature. Is that brother’s heart fundamentally positioned where he appreciates that part of the body that he’s disagreeing with? You know, again, it’s Corinthians, it’s, you know, look at the body language.
It’s like, you know, Mark and I will disagree, but I don’t doubt that the Lord’s given gifts that I don’t have and that I have to, I am called to appreciate Mark’s gifts at that table, even though I might be disagreeing with him right now. I’m insufficient by myself. God’s given me this whole body, I need to appreciate the entire body though I’m afoot.
How to Disagree Well
Jonathan Leeman:
True or false, brothers? Knowing how to disagree well is a sign of maturity.
Matt Schmucker:
True.
Mark Dever:
True.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, can you unpack and explain? Because I think people are afraid of disagreement, but if I’m building on what you just said, Matt, that there’s a difference between knowing how to disagree well and a contrarian disposition.
I think because people just kind of conflate those two things, all disagreement is contrarian and unhelpful. People, Christians, pious. well-meaning Christians shy away from healthy disagreement.
So unpack for us, and help us understand how healthy disagreement can be a sign of maturity. And even, I would even say, a mature culture knows how to disagree well.
Mark Dever:
Well, yeah, I kind of think you’ve just said it. I mean, I agree with what you’ve said.
Jonathan Leeman:
Can anybody explain that?
Prioritize Loving Over Winning
Matt Schmucker:
When I find myself disagreeing badly, whether it’s with my wife or a fellow elder, it’s because I want to win instead of love. So love has to be my default position.
Care for that person. My relationship with that person is more important than, is often more important than the particular issue at hand.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Matt Schmucker:
Depending on how small-minded you are, I would tend to get caught up on smaller matters, not the larger matters.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Here’s what I have in mind. You have a situation, say one of these tough pastoral care situations you described, should we excommunicate this person? I have biblically informed convictions about why we should excommunicate or should not.
I’m not trying to win. I’m genuinely, rightly trying to do what’s best for the church, for the couple, for whatever. You are on the other side of that issue than me.
And we’re both trying to be godly, not trying to win, we’re listening to one another. Help me understand further how we can disagree well in those moments. Walk us through the process.
Mark Dever:
I think when you’re in the actual elders meeting and if you’re speaking to the point, you need to be careful and speak in such a way as to allow space for the people who disagree with you. You can’t rhetorically kind of bring down the fire and the thunder, you know, on the, if we don’t do this,
Jonathan Leeman:
we might as well throw away our Bibles.
Mark Dever:
This church is done. I mean, if you do that, you’re not leaving any space for people to disagree with you. And so you really can’t speak in that manner. You have to give your reasons clearly, but then you have to know if this eldership votes 19 to 1 against my position, I can continue to serve here in good conscience or not.
You may face issues sometimes where you can’t, and that’s a whole different conversation. But generally, in these things, you can, and you need to speak in such a way that leaves that as a possibility.
Matt Schmucker:
I was in a position for years where I was always in the minority on a particular vote, but I was not alone. And then there were some transitions.
Jonathan Leeman:
There were like two of you.
Matt Schmucker:
No, there were three or four. And then some left the board or some moved out of state. And suddenly I’m by myself.
Jonathan Leeman:
Did you ever get over that?
Matt Schmucker:
No. I’m now by myself. And I said to the brothers, I said, look, I will do everything I can to vote with you on this matter. Though to me, it was a matter of conscience. I said I will do everything I can to vote with you on this matter.
But when I vote no, You’ve got to do everything you can to still love me. I can’t feel like that’ll push me out if I feel like I’m ostracized on this one particular issue.
Jonathan Leeman:
True or false, the disposition of your heart is often, not always, often then reveals what you do when they all vote no against you and you’re standing alone. At that moment, can you submit to them or not?
If it’s truly a matter of conscience, as Mark just said, you might need to step down. But let’s back it off of that and say it’s not.
Mark Dever:
I’m only struck by the example of one brother, we’ll call him Jim, who was an elder here who was a Sabbatarian. And that’s a serious matter. I mean, that’s the 10 commandments.
That’s what you think God has revealed. And you can read our church’s statement of faith and you can think, hey, I can be a Sabbatarian and serve here. But when you’re not a Sabbatarian, when you’re more a Lord’s Day guy and you see it’s called Christian Sabbath and you read how it’s defined, you realize like, oh, I could also be a Lord’s Day guy and serve here.
So I can’t say this is just a church for Sabbatarians. In fact, it deliberately seems to leave space for people who are not Sabbatarians. Well, that’s difficult because there’s not even just a two or three moral, ethical step away conclusion.
It’s like, that’s the 10 commandments. And yet this brother served really well as an elder. He was clear on what he thought and believed, but he understood that in joining this church, part of the compromise he had to make was he was laboring with brother elders who did not understand the fourth commandment in the same way he did.
And he was happy to go with that. And from what I heard from the fruit of his discipling, he never made that a divisive point.
I’m sure he didn’t lie as he told people what he thought the Bible taught. But there never arose a divisive party in the church around him about that, as far as I know.
Matt Schmucker:
And the test is when you have a vote on Thursday night that you lose, and then the following Sunday is a members meeting. And… Now the elder representative is up there representing the vote of the elders, assuming, you know, unity.
Mark Dever:
I’ve had to do that when I’ve been on the losing side and yet there I am representing.
Matt Schmucker:
It’s a test of the heart right there.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you don’t whisper to the member next to you, can’t believe this turkey made that decision.
Mark Dever:
No, you can’t. You can’t do anything like that ever.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Okay, so summing up a few principles here.
Trust The Lord’s Providential Work Through the Eldership
Mark Dever:
And Just to be clear on that, the reason is when that vote happens, like I think, Two of us have experienced maybe even this very day. We need to assume this is the Lord’s will, even though I voted a different way. So, we need to in our own selves be privately instructed and trust the Lord’s providential work through the eldership.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, and more than that, I would also say, if you expect the congregation to submit, you need to be able to model that kind of submission. So, if a man can’t submit, he shouldn’t lead, right, ordinarily.
Matt Schmucker:
Do you know where I got caught up most of the time, Jonathan, especially until I kind of sorted this out and recognized it and through the help of other brothers, when I would put an idea out or a memo or a proposal and it would be rejected, I saw that as a rejection of myself. And that’s a problem. We have to separate our own identities from our ideas.
Mark Dever:
It’s very common. Yeah.
Matt Schmucker:
And that’ll take a lot of the disagreement away from a table.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s right. It’s a kind of if you’ll permit me to say, it’s a kind of immaturity to make everything personal and about me.
Matt Schmucker:
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right, and we do need to grow out of that. Okay, so several takeaways, kind of what you were saying at the beginning, Mark, about how if I’m finding myself continually frustrated with somebody, maybe it’s a fault in them that needs to be addressed and they need to be removed, but maybe it’s a thing in me.
So if disagreement is constant, it’s this internal dialogue that’s a problem, number one. Number two takeaway really is about the posture of our hearts when we’re disagreeing with one another, right? Is it a contrary in spirit or is it just like, hey, this is a conventional thing, I need to know how to walk through it?
Elders Need To Be Able to Submit to One Another
Third takeaway, we need to be able to submit to the other elders. And if we can’t submit to the other elders, that’s probably a problem as well. Am I summing up okay?
Matt Schmucker:
Yeah, two other thoughts regarding pastors in particular and the role of the senior pastor. Pastors are really good on their feet. They should be anyhow, right? And they can be very good in an elders meeting.
and we’ve seen guys who aren’t so good on their feet but are good and godly, faithful elders. Be sure as pastors that you’re arguing for principles as opposed to preferences, and sometimes we can get those too confused.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, well said.
Matt Schmucker:
And then a word to the non-pastors. Pastors aren’t mountains to be climbed, but they are speed bumps to be considered. A pastor in an elders meeting shouldn’t put himself forward as if he’s kind of the last line.
But we should slow down and consider before we overrule the pastor, I think we should consider his position pretty clearly and go slowly before we ride over that speed bump. Would you agree with that, Mark?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think so. I might think of exceptions to that, but yes, on the whole. Yeah. Yeah. John, the one thing that strikes, I think a lot of the people listening to this will wonder, why not just require unanimity on everything?
Jonathan Leeman:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Dever:
Do you want to go there or not in this?
Jonathan Leeman:
We can. A couple of articles to point out. One, Jamie Dunlop has a great article called, Should Elders Insist on Unanimity? So go to 9marks.org, type in, Should Elders Insist on Unanimity? And he gives a good explanation, faithful explanation for why you ordinarily wouldn’t.
Mark Dever:
So I think we will do sometimes trying to be patient and wait upon the Spirit, assuming that… Conflict is bad and that any way we can bring more unity to the church is only going to be good. And so if that just takes us waiting longer, let’s just wait a little longer.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. And at times that might be a good thing to do.
Mark Dever:
Yeah depending on what kind of thing you’re talking about.
Jonathan Leeman:
There’s divisions I saw, for instance, we’re still working through it together on this elder board, CHBC, and let’s hold on. Let’s just wait. And that can be the right thing.
At the same time, I think it can ironically infantilize elders if… If I don’t know how to healthily work through disagreement, A, B, submit to my fellow elders in a way that I’m asking the congregation to submit, I don’t know that is a healthy thing.
Does Unanimity Stifle Honest Conversation?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think the downside of having that as your rule on your eldership.
Jonathan Leeman:
Unanimity.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think it tends to stifle honest conversation.
Jonathan Leeman:
that as well.
Mark Dever:
So I don’t think brothers are going to bring up the real hesitation they have about,
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t want to be disruptive.
Mark Dever:
If we do that, then that means it has this and this implication, and I don’t think we want to do those things. And yet there’s no reason not to if we agree to do this. And I think if you see all the other brothers look like they’re going with it, you don’t want to bring this up because then you’re just a roadblock and you know.
Matt Schmucker:
Just brings a standstill to the work.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
And yet so many churches do seem to use that, don’t they?
Jonathan Leeman:
And also speaking of that, Mark, I’m going to use what I was getting at before in a healthy culture, there is movement or allowance for disagreement. I mean, we all have been in cultural contexts where everybody’s afraid to disagree with one another.
And I think that too is a kind of immaturity. And I think healthy, godly people know how to work through things well. And that can take a while to cultivate that kind of culture.
Mark Dever:
I everybody bringing their A game of thinking, biblical knowledge, insight, experience.
Jonathan Leeman:
But they’re a game of humility as well.
Mark Dever:
That’s right, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Knowing how to respect the fact that…
Mark Dever:
Yes, yes.
Matt Schmucker:
Can you be persuaded?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Matt Schmucker:
Work up your A game and can you be persuaded?
Mark Dever:
Are you treatable?
Matt Schmucker:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s right.
Matt Schmucker:
We all agree on all this. We’re good.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now, we are in a moment where with the COVID-19 stuff, there’s gonna be lots of new opportunities for elders to disagree. When we should reopen, should we require a mask?
Do we still livestream? Even when we’re bringing it back, should we go to two services? Should we open a nursery?
Yada, yada, yada. So it does seem like this coming season is going to provide ample opportunity for elders to come down on different sides of things.
Brothers, any final words addressing that? COVID-19 disagreements, any final words? And this is us wrapping up.
Mark Dever:
Romans 14 and 15 are good chapters to live in.
Elders Should Exercise Forbearance Admist Disagreements
Jonathan Leeman:
Exercising forbearance amidst those disagreements, yes, but we still got to make decisions. Are we going to have the nursery or not?
Mark Dever:
We may find new lines through this that new congregations need to be planted. That Agree on this particular idea or that particular idea, it may just be so deep for some people that you just have to allow a Paul Barnabas-like separation there. If you do, do that charitably, do not demonize the side that’s disagreeing with you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Good. Matt, any final words?
Matt Schmucker:
Like you, maybe you’re growing weary of the word unprecedented, but it’s unprecedented what we’re facing. So, there’s just going to need to be more grace given. to these different issues.
Patience, long -suffering, forbearance, all these words should be coming into your mind as you approach the idea. Who can possibly know what’s right in this case?
Jonathan Leeman:
Brothers, I want to know I agree with both of you. Good final words.
Matt Schmucker:
Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you.
Mark Dever:
Thanks, brother.
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A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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