Episode 108: On Why Pastoral Candidates Should NOT Put Their Best Foot Forward (with Blake Boylston)
Should pastoral candidates put their best foot forward during the interview process? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Blake Boylston discuss how pastoral candidates should view the interview process and use it as a chance to respond honestly and communicate their beliefs clearly. They address the pastors conducting the interview and give advice on what to do when things do not go as planned. They counsel candidates on how to answer questions without sounding pedantic or cagey and finish their discussion by exploring how candidate pastors should preach, address money, and include their wives during the interview process.
- Pastoral Candidates Should Be Honest
- What to Do When Things Don’t Go as Planned
- How to Answer Questions Well
- Communicate Clearly as a Pastoral Candidate
- Preaching, Money, and Including Your Wife During the Candidacy Process
On Why Pastoral Candidates Should Not Put Their Best Foot Forward (with Blake Boylston)
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, I am Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
I’m Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And welcome to this episode of Nine Marks Pastors Talk. Nine marks exist to equip church leaders, with the biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more at ninemarks.org.
Mark Dever:
Jonathan, what? You just mentioned me, but Pastor Blake Boyleston is sitting over there.
Jonathan Leeman:
He sure is too.
Mark Dever:
What’s he doing here?
Blake Boylston:
Here I am. Hey Boo.
Mark Dever:
All the way from Arkansas?
Blake Boylston:
Not yet, but on the cusp, I don’t know.
Mark Dever:
We may be putting this out in the spring of 20 2020 and he may have been the pastor there for six months. He’s already in the future.
Jonathan Leeman:
There we go. Five. But at this moment he has just been voted in by the congregation. Praise the Lord. And you just went through the interviewing process, which is what I want to talk about with you, both of you, but it’s fresh in your mind, Blake.
Mark Dever:
Yes, sir.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you’ve been looking for a church for a few years.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. Oh, please. And we don’t need to say that,
Jonathan Leeman:
But the Lord ordained from maternity past that you would wedge this bride.
Blake Boylston:
Oh, I love it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right,
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
So I don’t want to talk about what churches should do to find a pastor. See episode 27 for that conversation, I want to talk about the pastor or the would-be pastor rather than going into a church and the kind of conversations he should have and the things he should be thinking about. Okay.
Blake Boylston:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Is the game plan clear?
Mark Dever:
Sounds good.
Jonathan Leeman:
Mark, you did that once a long time ago in a galaxy far away.
Mark Dever:
That’s true.
Pastoral Candidates Should Be Honest
Jonathan Leeman:
What was the main thing you were trying to accomplish when you came to CHBC? Well at that point it was Capitol Hill, Metropolitan Baptist Church. What was the main thing you were trying to accomplish in that candidacy process?
Mark Dever:
Well, for me, depending on which I guess the candidating time would be when I’d already been here and visited and that’s when I concluded this is what I did think I should do. So then in the candidating, I was just trying to make sure I was honest and clear with people
Jonathan Leeman:
And forced conversations that maybe they didn’t even want to have or not want to have, but didn’t think to have. Can you give us an illustration of that?
Mark Dever:
Well, there were actually multiple of them, but I think the one you may be referring to is when I was with the pulpit search committee after I’d been with them for a couple of hours and they said, or I said, you haven’t asked me any theological questions. And basically, I got around to the point where they said they had reason to trust me.
And I said, well, lemme tell you what you wouldn’t like about me if you knew. And then I thought a couple of things and one of them was I said, I’m a Calvinist. And then a whole conversation ensued about that. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Did you approach dating like that first date? Lemme tell you what you like about me.
Mark Dever:
Maybe a little That’s awkward. Maybe before the date as I plotted who to ask out on a date. Yes, maybe I did, but that’s a different conversation. Let’s Blake talk. Can you re-ask the question?
Jonathan Leeman:
To me. Were you tempted when you were a candidate dating a brother to put your best foot forward?
Blake Boylston:
Not this time. I applied previous years ago for my first church and other opportunities since then. And I felt the temptation more because I think I was still trying to figure out who I was. I was trying to size myself up to think how could I present myself in a way that would be appealing and attractive and in line with maybe what they’re looking for.
But I think this time I had just been brought to a place where I was just going to be myself. And if they genuinely don’t like who I think God has made me to be at this point, then I don’t need to force that.
Jonathan Leeman:
You don’t want to pretend.
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, in fact, you recently wrote an article or a letter rather, you sent out to a number of people about four things you had learned in this process. And the first thing that you learned, you say is spend yourself and be yourself. What did you mean by that?
Blake Boylston:
Well, the language of course, I borrow from Paul in Second Corinthians, I think it’s 1215 where he says that he desires to spend himself as well as be spent for them. And so I was using that language to say that in every conversation we have, I’m going to be who I am, my opinions, my convictions. If I have a genuine question that crosses my mind, I’m just going to ask it.
I don’t want to assume I don’t want them, I don’t want them to assume they know me. I want to over-communicate things about me that I think or anticipate. They’re going to want to know based on my knowledge of previous church experiences, but also stories I’ve heard from others.
Mark Dever:
And I would say that’s part of your loving that church. So if you’re going to go as the pastor, you’re going to do it because you love those sheep. Christ died for those sheep. Part of that love is that kind of honesty.
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
Mark Dever:
So you’re beginning to treat them with the same affection, esteem, respect,
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
Mark Dever:
That you would continue on with.
Blake Boylston:
Yeah. And I think even as I teach, since we actually joked about the dating piece to Mark, I teach the dating course seminar class here at CHPC
Mark Dever:
Just the same rules your dad said when you and your brother would go to the furniture store
Blake Boylston:
We’ll leave that topic.
Mark Dever:
Oh, you got to say that. Come on, you got to say that.
Blake Boylston:
Come on
Mark Dever:
The story won’t take long.
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t know the story.
Mark Dever:
Come on.
Blake Boylston:
Well, that one is a class on sexual purity prior to marriage. And so I start off by introducing the class going. My dad, when we grew up, brought me and my brother to a furniture store and he would say, boys, you only got two rules.
We said, what’s that Dad? He said, don’t hide, and don’t touch anything. Well this morning in the dating course seminar class, that’s exactly what we’re going to talk about. Don’t hide and don’t touch what you fill in the blank. And then I invite people to come to the class
Jonathan Leeman:
Pretty good
Blake Boylston:
This is totally a side note to anything we’re talking about.
Mark Dever:
But boy, aren’t you glad you listened to this interview this long that you got that little bit?
Blake Boylston:
The podcast is taking an offramp there, but the part I was talking about dating is being able to talk about the things that are going to avoid pretense and talk about the things that are going to pursue transparency. So I just want to get the ball rolling, actually taking the lead as the pastor already setting the agenda for we need to communicate clearly and honestly. And I think it starts even in those initial conversations,
Mark Dever:
I think the pastor whose candidate can’t quite have as his goal the church voting to call him, that’s just a little bit too direct. I think that the pastor has to be trying to worship the Lord by loving the people and telling the truth. The truth might be he would love to be their next pastor from what he can tell, but he has to be able to imagine a world in which he loves the Lord, he serves the Lord, and this congregation doesn’t want him to come as their pastor.
You have to allow that. So you can’t quite finally be a businessman or salesman trying to sell yourself as a product. It doesn’t quite work like that for a candidate running for office.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think there’s a sense though, and what you’re describing though is counterintuitive to a lot of us, I think on dates and candidate and job interviews. We do want to put our best foot forward and I so appreciate the wisdom. Is there a sense mark in which you are almost pastoring them going in?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, definitely.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m here to pastor you guys for this weekend of can.
What to Do When Things Don’t Go as Planned
Mark Dever:
Yeah, and you do it. And even in the things that don’t go as planned, you’re just trusting the Lord’s sovereignty in it. There’s a good God who is really about making sure these sheep are going to be shepherded.
So Blake, you just had a candidate weekend a few weekends ago, and I’m sure much of it went as planned, but it may be some things didn’t go as planned, but those are the times when you just trust the Lord’s sovereignty. Any good example of that?
Blake Boylston:
Well, I think they did a great job of clearly telling me this is a larger church and in order for the church at large, the leadership has gotten to know me decently through sermons and interview stuff, but they felt that because I’m not from Arkansas and I don’t live around the corner, they need to get to know me as best as possible beyond sermons. So they divided the congregation up into five different portions over two days, and I basically took 11 to 12 hours of Q and A.
Introversion in Pastoral Candidacy
Jonathan Leeman:
Aren’t you an introvert?
Blake Boylston:
Yes. And it takes me beyond. I almost lost my voice. I had no emotion left. Mark had to give me a personal day when I got back. Anyway, that’s another story. So they were very clear about you’re going to have to get ready to go through the gauntlet.
There were some other things though that happened that I didn’t plan for the conversations afterward in the hallway in the parking lot, and then the surprise questions that I needed to answer even on Sunday night after my last sermon, dealing with concerns that a few members may have had about my candidacy. So having to deal with objections to my candidacy.
Mark Dever:
I think often one thing that happens in a candidating weekend like that is weaknesses, existing weaknesses in that congregation show themselves and you get the results, the whatever, if a congregation has divisions in it, yeah, you’ll kind of get hit by that a little bit. If a congregation is not well taught in other areas. Yeah, you’ll kind of experience that.
Blake Boylston:
That’s right. I think the best analogy I can come up with, it’s that the person you’ve been dating and you’re pretty sure you’re going to marry conversations are going on and then you get to see that some are a little awkward in conversation, some want to take over the conversation, some ask questions you probably shouldn’t ask at the dinner table and it just gets weird really quick.
But you get to find out if you marry this dear lady, you’re marrying into the family. And so I think the same thing goes with candidacy you’re going to have the hiccups, the ohs, do I really want to sign up for this? But I think that’s one of the best things you can experience instead of a rose-colored experience.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, something else you say in your letter is another piece of advice never assume definitions ask. What do you mean by that? Explain. So it’s not just them asking you questions, it’s you asking them questions. That’s right.
Mark Dever:
You had a couple of good experiences that weekend from
Blake Boylston:
What you said. Yes. So the first question out the gate, it was not like, tell us your testimony or What’s your favorite book of the Bible? The first question was,
Jonathan Leeman:
What is your favorite book of the Bible?
Blake Boylston:
I don’t have one.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, go on.
Blake Boylston:
The first question was to give us your view on Calvinistic doctrine and give us your view of Southern Baptist doctrine. Well, of course, all the lights are going off in my mind on why are we pitting those two things against each other? Am I talking to someone who would be against or for Calvinistic doctrine and are they specifically talking about one teaching under the doctrines of grace or the package limited
Mark Dever:
Irresistible grace.
Blake Boylston:
So I’m sitting there and just in the heat of the moment, what do you mean? I just said before I answer your question, can you define for me Calvinistic doctrine and Southern Baptist Doctrine? Now here’s the catch to the entire time. She then responded I don’t know.
And the whole room erupted with laughter. And so it kind of diffused an explosive situation by me asking an honest question. And she answered honestly back. And I think it was a wonderful teaching opportunity for me to teach them, but also to show everyone in the room, you need to know what you’re asking.
Mark Dever:
Well, churches and church members will hear these phrases and words from a blog they read or preachers they may respect from elsewhere. And yeah, this happens.
How to Answer Questions Well
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right, Mark, how do you answer questions without seeming pedantic or cagey?
Mark Dever:
Well, that’s a very subtle way for you to suggest that. I don’t,
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s a good question. Somebody wrote it down in this paper. Alex wrote it down to me. One, how could one hypothetically,
Mark Dever:
How could one? There we go, man. I don’t know. I think I sometimes fail at being able to not do that. Blake, you want to help me out?
Blake Boylston:
I know I do. Pardon my ignorance. I don’t even know what pedantic means or kg for that matter.
Jonathan Leeman:
Kg kind of like
Mark Dever:
Direct, indirect.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re avoiding answering the question pedantic, meaning you’re answering with some pretentiousness and intellectual superiority. What’s the original question then? How do you avoid answering questions without seeming pedantic or cagey?
Mark Dever:
Well, Blake just gave you a great example of the way he asked a question of that woman who was asking a question. So just humbly saying, what do you mean by that?
Blake Boylston:
Yes. And there was another question that was in a similar line with Calvinistic theology that I picked up in the, I think the overall tone of the question, it felt more like a jab and to try to pick a fight than an honest, humble question.
And so I deliberately said in my answer, I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that, but it comes off more of a jab or a threat. And so I don’t think I’m even going to answer that question without understanding.
Jonathan Leeman:
Wait, wait, you said that.
Blake Boylston:
Yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
What was the question?
Blake Boylston:
The question was that’s pretty bold from what we have or what I have read or studied, you come from a church that is a leader in the new Calvinist movement. It is a dangerous doctrine and we should protect our church from it.
I honestly did not have any category for how to define the new Calvinist movement, and I’m not sure what was dangerous. So I thought, I don’t want to defend something I don’t understand and to assume that something’s dangerous, that I’m not even sure what it is. It just came off that they were trying to stereotype me.
Mark Dever:
But I also think people learn and scare quotes. People learn a lot of things from the internet and often when just a real human being turns up and we’ll just talk to them in a normal way, you can do a lot to dispel misunderstanding and mistrust that’s built up.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, that’s obvious even in the first woman’s question, right? What’s the difference between Calvin’s, Stocker’s, and Southern’s? Well, those were scare words for her and probably for many people in the room.
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
And it sounds like you usefully exposed them. Blake, you also, your last piece of advice surprised me. You said tell them you love them and that you want to be their pastor. Does that go against what Mark was saying a moment ago?
Mark Dever:
What did Mark say a moment ago when I said Tell ’em things they wouldn’t like about if they knew?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, no, no, no. When you said you need to imagine the universe in which you’re not the pastor not trying to get them to hire you, but Blake is saying to tell them you love them and want to be their pastor.
Mark Dever:
Well, but that’s fine. Yeah. I don’t think that contradicts what I was saying.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Help us understand.
Blake Boylston:
Yeah. So I am very careful with using the words I love you just period. So obviously with my wife, I didn’t say I love you until I proposed to her. I was very careful with that word. I’m not saying you’re in sin or foolish for saying otherwise, but I would say you better back up your words with commitment and action.
So with the search committee and the leadership I was meeting with, I had been in conversations for about two and a half months or so, and that weekend that I came, not for the candidacy, but really the formal interview process, there was about an eight to nine hour a day worth of q and a just with the search committee.
It was very personal, it was very emotional. They opened up to me on how broken they have been as a church and how listening to some of my sermons was, I mean, in powerful ways, answers to specific prayers,
Jonathan Leeman:
Praise God.
Blake Boylston:
And so it was extremely humbling for people I’ve never met, for people that were not in our immediate tribe of influences, said that they were being ministered to and shepherded and fed from a guy that they just got some sermons from a family member. Me. That’s so great.
So in those conversations, my heart was being knit to them because they were hungry, they were broken, they were transparent, and they got vulnerable. They asked questions of Brother Blake, we have these resources. How would you shepherd our congregation to use them?
Jonathan Leeman:
So what I’m hearing you say, brother, is when you said, I love you, you Ben, it. Oh, and that was at your heart had grown in affection. You weren’t just saying this is the right thing to say right now.
Communicate Clearly as a Pastoral Candidate
Blake Boylston:
Well, the funny part of the story is after that nine-hour day after a meal the night before, and almost two to three meals the next day night, me and Julie went back to our hotel. I was exhausted. And I said, Julie, we’re pretty much on the same page.
We were both going to say yes. She says, absolutely. I said, but I don’t know if I’ve clearly communicated that through showing words of affirmation, words of affection, because they’ve been pouring themselves out to me, but I don’t think I’ve matched that yet.
And so I resolve the next morning when we get to the airport, I’m going to huddle them all together and I’m going to tell them, and this is what happened. I gathered them together and I said, brothers and sisters, before we leave and go back to DC I just want to make something crystal clear if I didn’t the night before, if you call me to be your next pastor, we’ve already said yes. I just want you to know that because I love you.
As soon as I said that, tears went down, and their faces and hugs were embraced. And I realized in that moment, one, we should never say, I love you flippantly or tritely or try to use it in a way to draw people to ourselves. But I do think in the right moment, clearly communicating your love for them is important.
Mark Dever:
And that is a later stage. We were calling this interview about a candidate or something, but just in an earlier stage when you’re getting to know a church, it’s like in an earlier stage of dating, you’re not doing that and you are just trying to make sure more.
Preaching, Money, and Including Your Wife During the Candidacy Process
Do we agree on the philosophy of ministry? Do we agree on preaching? Do we agree on the community we want to see built here? You’re trying to learn that both from the congregation for the preacher and of the preacher from the congregation.
Blake Boylston:
At this point, they had already listened. I think all my sermons, had read a 10-page theological questionnaire I had written for them. So they just knew these things about me. A two-page questionnaire on the philosophy of ministry. So a lot of the nuts and bolts essentials were already discussed. It was now then how would you shepherd us through blank?
Mark Dever:
So on the candidating weekend, when you’re actually there for them to be presented with a decision, will they call you or not? If that’s the way the church does it, well then the people who brought your name should know what you think about the doctrines of grace, and they should be on board with that. Now, that may be the time when some of the members of the church learn
Blake Boylston:
That’s right,
Mark Dever:
And then they get to think about that. But yeah, you should be fairly far down that road of information by the time you’re actually a candidate.
Jonathan Leeman:
How much should you initiate conversations about doctrine and contested cultural issues, LGBT if complementarianism not asking the questions?
Blake Boylston:
I think that’s a good question. I would say for me, I wanted to get everything on the table quicker than down the road, mainly because I do think we are living in a time because of media and politics and then things that have blown up in the name of evangelicalism over some of these hot topics of gender and marriage and complementarianism and other things. I think it’s important to be very clear on where you stand going.
Now, I do think you might want to be patient with some of the more fine-tuned detailed things that you might have a strong preference for that you might just need to visit down the road. But I think on the front end, some of the things that are going to shape the culture of the church and be fundamental to your preaching, I think you do need to be clear with that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Anything to add, mark?
Mark Dever:
I agree.
Two Service Churches
Jonathan Leeman:
What if it’s a two-service church and you believe in one service?
Mark Dever:
Well, I mean that’s so common these days and I think people can be one over, but I think it’s going to take a while, so I don’t want to be deceptive on that. So I’d certainly tell ’em what I think, but I would also, want to see the church led in a good direction.
It’s not just, oh, let me give you a test, you fail. I’m out of here. So I think I would tend to be clear, but maybe light on that.
Jonathan Leeman:
My instincts would be to say, Hey, I recognize you have two services, just to let you know. Maybe not right away, but ultimately I would want to
Mark Dever:
Reunite the church like you used to reunite the church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah,
Mark Dever:
Yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Any counsel on the sermon you preach Candidating sermon sermons.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, don’t pick your best because then people are going to be expecting that every week. Just ask him to give you a text of scripture and just expound that text.
Jonathan Leeman:
Here’s my ordinary weekly sermon.
Blake Boylston:
Yeah, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. Is that what you did, Blake?
Blake Boylston:
Yeah. So I preached Psalm 63 in the morning. It’s only 11 verses. It’s a set-alone psalm. And then the evening preached one John four, seven to 12. So five or six verses. I did choose those passages intentionally with a similar theme of the love of God, but also in the last two to three months of getting to know the leadership and more about the health of the church, going through a big transition.
One of the things that both the senior pastor as well as the leadership have been very open with the congregation is that we are spiritually out of shape. We are spiritually fat, we are lethargic, and we are in somewhat of a spiritual dry season.
Well, I was thinking through that in light of what I would preach, and Psalm 63 opens up with David’s recounting of being in the wilderness of Judah and his soul is as dry as the heat of the wilderness in Judah. And so I thought this would be immediately applicable. It’s not a huge psalm.
There are no difficult doctrines to untie. And then one John four really was dealing more with the love of God, how does it affect our relationships with one another? So I thought both texts were not controversial, but both texts would set I think a good precedent for how I would want to preach moving forward.
Is It Okay to Talk About Money, Housing, or Retirement During Candidacy?
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m wondering how much you talk about things like money, housing, and retirement. Once upon a time, I was sitting in a seminary chapel listening to the seminary president preach to all those seminary students and that seminary president, and he’s not presently a seminary president. He said to those in the seminary chapel, Hey, if you are ever in a church and you are a candidate for a sermon, you would better not talk about money.
In fact, I would say to a church that if a candidate talks about money, he’s a lover of money and you shouldn’t hire him. What do you guys think? Should we just steer clear of any conversation about money, housing, or retirement?
Mark Dever:
I do not think you should steer clear of that. I think you have to pick the right time and setting in the right people to talk with about it. But particularly if you’re married, you’d be a very poor steward of your wife and family if you don’t make sure you’re understanding what their intentions are to provide for you.
Blake Boylston:
Yeah, I agree. I think it interesting even the assumption that a man might be a lover of money and First Timothy three, well, he also should manage his own household well, which means he has to have forethought of how he’ll care for his family. But in the same letter, one Timothy five verse 17, let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. So I do think along with the qualifications of the office and the responsibilities of the office comes financial compensation, and that has to be a part of the conversation
Mark Dever:
And that’s financial compensation as that church is able and in the setting it’s appropriate.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. So yes, a man can be a lover of money. Yes, a man can be entitled to a certain income at the same time. There is a time and a place for Amanda to say, Hey, I want to come here, but with that salary, I don’t know how I can care for my wife and children.
Blake Boylston:
That’s right.
How is the Wife Involved in the Interview Process?
Jonathan Leeman:
You need to have a category for potentially saying that. How is the wife involved in the candidating process interview process? How should she be involved? Rather,
Mark Dever:
She’s got to be on board from the very beginning. You need to be praying about it. She needs to be praying about it. In our case, we lived very far away, kind of like blank. And so I was here first without her, and so then when I came back to where we lived at the time, and she and I both then talked about how we had been feeling in our prayer times as we prayed about it, we both realized, we were thinking like, yeah, this would be a good thing for us to do.
We’re both surprised by that. So I suggested, listen, why don’t I keep the kids you head over for a week and why don’t you check it out yourself and see what you think? So that’s what she did and it was super helpful.
Jonathan Leeman:
What’s striking to me about that story Mark is if I recall, you didn’t tell her what you thought, right?
Mark Dever:
So when I was over here and I felt convicted, so this would be the weekend as it were before the canning weekend. This would be like five months before this was my first trip here. I came really just as a politeness. I wasn’t really that interested and the Lord turned my heart to the situation, but I didn’t tell her that because I didn’t want, I knew we had two little kids.
This was the murder capital of the world at the time or the us and this is not where she and I had grown up. Neither of us had grown up in a city and I just thought, I don’t know. I should really make sure that she buys in.
So although I felt this to be of the Lord when I got back home and when she and I first sit down and talk about it, I’m totally surprised to find that she’s prayed about it. She’s felt this is more what we should do than a couple of other things we were thinking about.
Jonathan Leeman:
But she still didn’t tell her.
Mark Dever:
I did not. Yeah, me too. No, because I wanted, I wanted an independent verification. So I just said, listen, why don’t I keep the kids you head over, see what you think. She got here after a day or two here, she’s in the prayer meeting, here’s Maxine praying, and she’s just thinking, this is what the Lord wants us to do.
Jonathan Leeman:
Then she tells you, then you say me too. Exactly. Any counsel on wives involving wives?
Blake Boylston:
Well, I think this is going to get on my husband’s rant, but I think a man, it’s
Jonathan Leeman:
Got to be a short rant because we’re long on time,
Blake Boylston:
Very short. If you are a pastor and you’re a husband, you should already be disciplining yourself to lead your wife week in and week out by clearly communicating the necessary details of your life and making decisions.
Not every detail, but the ones that are necessary to make a competent decision. Well, I think if you’re doing that, the candidacy process won’t be as hard as you make it If you do your research and you already know what’s going to matter most to your wife.
My wife already assumes I believe in justification by faith alone, and I’m going to be at a church that does too. She’s not asking about that. She’s wondering, are they going to be able to take care of our family financially?
What’s the average age of the congregation IE friendships, and what are the schools like in the area? And is it a place that we could see ourselves putting roots down? Now there are other questions, but knowing what my wife is going to be most interested in is a huge part of it. And if you can include her in the interview process so they can get to know her all the better. But every situation is different.
Mark Dever:
I mean, years earlier, back when Blake was first coming up here, Julie was with him one time, and I specifically said, Hey, can I talk to Julie? Because I as a potential employer, wanted to know what Julie was thinking of things. And if the church that’s considering calling you as a pastor is wise, they won’t interview her.
She’s going to be an employee of theirs, but they will interview her. They care about her and care about what she’s perceiving and what experiences she’s going to be concerned about.
Blake Boylston:
Yeah, I think the two questions Mark asked, I’ll never forget, it was December 20, I think 23rd, 2014. He was preaching in the gospel of Luke, and he said two things that Julie said, Julie, I like your husband, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter until I hear from you. Number one, do you think Blake’s called to be a pastor?
Do you like his preaching or not? And number two, how willing would you be to pick up your life and move to Washington DC? And so I appreciated the frankness, the directness, but I think the questions that would have broken the camel’s back if she had said something very different. So I think that was very useful.
Jonathan Leeman:
Anything else on this topic of candidating, of church burners?
Mark Dever:
There are some resources on the 9Mark’s website you can look up, that might be helpful.
Blake Boylston:
That’s
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Blake Boylston:
I think one of the things that I learned through this process, and I think I’ll continue to learn when we talk about God as sovereign, that never promote fatalistic thinking, let go and let God. What we do and what we say and what we pray doesn’t matter. I think what the sovereignty of God does for our life is that I don’t have to force something that’s not there. Amen. Gives us courage. That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. Thanks guys.
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A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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