Episode 60: On Cultivating a Culture of Evangelism
Why should churches cultivate a culture of evangelism and how can they work towards this goal? Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever break down the biblical importance of personal evangelism and why churches shouldn’t farm it out to pastors, programs, or professionals. During this episode of Pastors Talk, they encourage holding regular baptisms during services, flesh out how biblical membership and discipline can foster evangelism in the church, and address what to do if your congregation has grown cold to evangelism in today’s culture.
- What Does Cultivating a Culture of Evangelism Mean?
- Baptisms Encourage Personal Evangelism
- Membership and Discipline Fuel Evangelism
- Evangelizing in Today’s Culture
Transcript
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On Cultivating a Culture of Evangelism
Jonathan Leeman
Hi, I’m Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever
Yes, he really is.
Jonathan Leeman
And you really are Mark Dever.
Mark Dever
I am.
Jonathan Leeman
And we’re here to talk as pastors because this is…
Mark Dever
Pastors Talk, the place where pastors gather to talk.
Jonathan Leeman
That’s right. 9Marks exists…
Mark Dever
And you know what you and I are?
Jonathan Leeman
Pastors?
Mark Dever
And you know what we do?
Jonathan Leeman
We talk.
Mark Dever
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s very descriptive.
Mark Dever
Simple and obvious nomenclature.
Jonathan Leeman
That’s right. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building….
Mark Dever
Churches from Texas to North Carolina.
Jonathan Leeman
…healthy…churches all over the place.
Mark Dever
Churches from England to Argentina.
Jonathan Leeman
We want to see them healthy. So that’s why we’re talking.
Mark Dever
From Zambia to Singapore.
Jonathan Leeman
Or you can learn more at 9marks.org if this conversation is already taxing your interest. Mark—
Mark Dever
Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman
—personal evangelism is really important.
Mark Dever
Yes, it is.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s a spiritual discipline all Christians should pursue.
What Does Cultivating a Culture of Evangelism Mean?
Mark Dever
Have you guys seen anybody come to Christ at Cheverly Baptist Church yet?
Jonathan Leeman
Not to our knowledge. We’ve been going for, since February, so that’s about five, six months.
Mark Dever
You’ve been going since April.
Jonathan Leeman
April. No, February.
Mark Dever
April.
Jonathan Leeman
I think I know when my church began.
Mark Dever
I think I know when I preached your church into existence.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, no, that was an installation. And it’s not your preaching that makes us a church, pal. It’s the Lord’s Supper.
Mark Dever
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman
I want to think about cultivating—
Mark Dever
You see that little ecclesiology we used right there?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, that’s right.
Mark Dever
It was good.
Jonathan Leeman
We snuck it in.
Mark Dever
Yep. Always teaching, those 9Marks guys.
Jonathan Leeman
I want to think about cultivating a culture of evangelism.
Mark Dever
Excellent.
Jonathan Leeman
What does that mean? Where’d you first hear that phrase? A culture of evangelism.
Mark Dever
No idea. I think I made it up, but it doesn’t seem very original. I bet a lot of people talk about it.
Jonathan Leeman
Does that just mean you have a church full of soul winners? What does that mean?
Mark Dever
Yeah. And they talk about it and we pray about it. And we understand that’s one of the main things we’re supposed to do.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. So when you’re saying a culture of evangelism, what are you setting that against?
Mark Dever
Churches that are—
Jonathan Leeman
Individualistic evangelists, church staff-centric evangelists?
Mark Dever
Kind of, but more just churches that are self-satisfied and not really thinking much about reaching out to the non-Christians.
Jonathan Leeman
So it’s not just—
Mark Dever
With the gospel.
Evangelism Vs. Programmatic Evangelism
Jonathan Leeman
So it’s not just programmatic evangelism?
Mark Dever
No, I think often when a pastor thinks, hey, my church is not evangelistic enough, they tend to immediately look for a program that they enlist people in. But I think that’s often like Saul’s armor for David.
I don’t think that’s…it often just doesn’t fit. What you need is to have people who have a heart for evangelism and then you can use almost any program. The program won’t matter that much. They’re going to be sharing the gospel.
They’ll use any program to help them do that. So what you want is to excite people about the joyous privilege of sharing the gospel with other people.
Jonathan Leeman
And that’s just a part of the regular, ordinary culture of the place.
Mark Dever
Yeah. Pray about it regularly. I love it…our prayer meeting, interviewing members of the church, you know, Charles Kim a couple of months ago.
Getting together people at his conference room at work to share his testimony and share the gospel and just getting people, I mean in your own church, Chesed, you know, has just done that so well in the past or in our church, Abigail. You know, it’s just when people are sharing the gospel, Lois, at work, when people are sharing the gospel, trying to give examples that people can see and be spurred by and emulate and pray for.
Setting Examples of Evangelizing
Jonathan Leeman
Give examples, what do you mean, like in your sermons? You mean in prayer meetings? What do you mean give examples?
Mark Dever
In any way, in these testimonies that we have in our prayer meeting, certainly I could mention something in a sermon, but somehow disseminating the idea that it is normal for people who are not paid to do it to tell other people about Jesus.
Jonathan Leeman
Why do we so easily default towards saying this is the responsibility of the people who are paid to do it?
Mark Dever
Well, I think in our own flesh, generally, we don’t want to contradict other people. We don’t want to tell people they’re going to hell. We don’t want to…I mean, I was just having a conversation last night with one of our members who just feels like it would be almost legally unsafe for him to share the gospel in his workplace.
There’s increasing hostility. Because the Bible is so clear about homosexuality being wrong, it’s just a little snap, or a trap rather, and a snare for Christians these days at work. You know, will we put our foot in the wrong place and say something?
And then will that be labeled hate speech? And then we’d be subject to some kind of disciplinary action or even loss of our jobs. So Satan’s done a great job of trying to take a place where we’re already weak, sharing the gospel, and making us even more scared to say anything.
How Do You Pray for a Culture of Evangelism
Jonathan Leeman
Rather than just kind of quickly list all the ways you cultivate a culture of evangelism, I kind of want to think about these different areas a little more slowly, deliberately.
In prayer—what are you personally praying? What are you teaching your church to pray in the Sunday night meeting in these ways?
Mark Dever
Every day in my own personal quiet time, I pray for people who are not Christians. They may be neighbors. They’re certainly family members, maybe people I think we don’t encounter that day.
In our public services, certainly in the pastoral prayer, which is our prayer of intercession, in our main service, we will pray for everything from the establishment of churches in this country and in other countries, to the kinds of people that we want to see come to know the Lord, to help in evangelism, the Holy Spirit to help us.
Jonathan Leeman
I’ve noticed lately, in the last year or two, you started asking, maybe you’re always doing this and I just had more ears to hear it, but praying for evangelistic opportunities, but also ask for conversions. Lord, we want to see conversions, which has certainly been the burden of my heart. And I feel like you’re asking more for that as well.
Baptisms Cultivate a Culture of Evangelism
Mark Dever
It probably just bothers me whenever we have a month with no baptisms. Because the way we do it at our church, we try to baptize no more than six people at a time. And we’ve tried to focus those baptisms into one service each month so that it doesn’t just take too much time.
Because it lengthens the service. We already have a long service. Baptisms are joyous things. They’re wonderful things.
But there have been a few months, not many, I think, in the last 20 years, but there have been a few months when there have been no baptisms. And that just makes me sad.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
We’ve got like these days a thousand people sitting there.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
Presumably, some of us are sharing the gospel. Maybe a lot of us are, and really no one’s coming to Christ. Now, you know, we learn when we hear baptismal testimony.
I got this really sweet letter from one sister in the church two days ago in which she mentioned—no, she handed it to me on Sunday, so this past Sunday—in which she said a year ago today, I was not a Christian. And she gave this wonderful account of her coming to Christ through our church and her life just being transformed.
And now here she is a year later and what’s happened in her life. Well, I don’t think her conversion, when it happened, I don’t think we knew at church, we knew about the next Sunday. So I’m not sure we’re always immediately aware.
Like when you have an invitation or an altar call and people come down, they say, Hey, I’ve become a Christian. I think often in our circles, uh, it takes a little bit longer for, uh, it to surface, you know, who is converted and when and how they’ve been converted. So…
Jonathan Leeman
I want to backtrack to your talk of baptism. It occurs to me that the way you do baptisms here cultivates that culture of evangelism.
Mark Dever
We want people in their testimonies, we get them to share their testimonies, and we want them to be able to name specific names if they can.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s always so encouraging.
Mark Dever
Of places, of people, of events that happened, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
And you think, oh, so -and -so is part of this.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
How Do You Model Evangelism in Discipling?
Jonathan Leeman
I can do it too. How do you model it among the men you’re discipling, whether informally as they’re church members or men on your staff or interns? How do you use that to cultivate a culture of evangelism?
Mark Dever
It’s the same thing. There’s nothing that’s really different than that. Sadly, often I wouldn’t say that the staff or the interns are in any way markedly better about evangelism, you know? I wish I could say we were.
Jonathan Leeman
And you want to see them growing in those ways.
Mark Dever
Yeah, I want to see us growing in that.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, you know, the thing that really occurred to me lately, Mark, it came home to me. John and I, John Joseph and I were discussing this. Um, I don’t think I’ve said this on one of these conversations before, maybe I have.
Mark Dever
But if you have, maybe people haven’t memorized it.
Evangelistic Churches Have Evangelistic Pastors
Jonathan Leeman
That’s true. Uh, those churches that are evangelistic tend to have evangelistic pastors.
Mark Dever
Oh yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
I remember having a conversation. I was sitting on a plane next to Ryan Fullerton and not a few seconds passed and he was already engaging in the guy—
Mark Dever
That’s so cool.
Jonathan Leeman
—with the guy next to him evangelistically. And that’s typical of Ryan. Right? And what’s Immanuel Baptist Church?
So far as I know, they’re a pretty evangelistic church. Evangelist, evangelistic pastors have evangelistic churches, discipling pastors have discipling churches.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
And I think what’s going on there is what, what, what does an elder do? An elder says, defines with his words and his life, this is ordinary Christianity.
And if ordinary Christianity is evangelistic in his life, that increasingly becomes ordinary in the lives of the churches. Think that’s a fair assessment?
Mark Dever
Very much so, which is one of the reasons that ordinariness is what I’m striving for, which is one of the reasons that I like to have every Sunday night in our service, prayed for evangelism and conversions from our evangelism.
Because that’s just a regular part of our life together. As Christians, we are dependent on this, on praying, we’re dependent on God, foreseeing conversions, and we regularly beseech Him for them.
Membership and Discipline Cultivate a Culture of Evangelism
Jonathan Leeman
Why would you say membership and discipline are a part of cultivating a culture of evangelism?
Mark Dever
Well, because you need to have some sense of distinctness and some sense of responsibility, some sense of we are here and they are there and they need to come here. And membership and discipline helps to do that and make us accountable for that.
Jonathan Leeman
Puts us on display.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Hospitality Cultivates a Culture of Evangilism
Jonathan Leeman
What about hospitality? I think of Romans 12, practice hospitality. I think of 1 Timothy 3, an elder must be hospitable. I think of 1 Peter 4, the end of all things is at hand, therefore practice hospitality.
Mark Dever
Well did you just read Rosaria’s new book?
Jonathan Leeman
I’m five-sixths of the way through it.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s so good.
Mark Dever
I’ve just flipped through a little bit. It looks amazing. I’ve heard really good things about it.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s kind of like 9Marks 2.0.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
She’s just putting flesh on a lot of what we’re talking about in wonderful ways through hospitality. What role would you say, brother, hospitality plays in evangelism? Help us connect those things.
Mark Dever
Well, it’s a bit more drawing in and attractive than a handshake. So it’s like it’s an introduction. It’s a welcoming of someone into your world, which presumably is going to be populated by more Christians than just yourself.
And presumably, some of them are going to be in your same church. And that’s going to be reflected in our life together in a way I hope that’s compelling and attractive.
Jonathan Leeman
I also find that sitting at my dinner table is just much easier to get to the gospel than sitting next to the person on the airplane.
Mark Dever
Yeah, so true.
Jonathan Leeman
You know, so, we’ve had multiple families in our home and that’s where it’s just always easiest for me to go to the gospel as well as deal with some of those tough situations. So I had a friend, a neighbor, in our house recently and he brought up the whole transgender thing and that was in the context of talking about the faith and in that context, I could lay out more clearly, helpfully, though I’m not sure I did, how we as Christians respond to such things as transgender. In a way, a quick conversation. Other places don’t.
Family Cultivates a Culture of Evangelism
Mark Dever
Well, and they see you humanly caring for your daughters.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
You know, asking if they want some more.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
Being instructed by your wife. You know, I mean, it’s just, it’s a much more completed picture of, you know, you have the bright spots and the shadows, and the whole way you get the more accurate texture of the man.
Jonathan Leeman
It’s three-dimensional.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Where Have Christians Grown Cold to Evangelism?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Where would you say a pastor should start if he feels like his members have grown cold in evangelism?
Mark Dever
Prayer, prayer, prayer. Prayer, prayer, prayer. Making sure that the gospel is very clear in your own teaching, making sure they hear you each week modeling what it means to call people to Christ.
Jonathan Leeman
What would you, what should he do if he’s discouraged at the lack of fruit from faithful yet slow evangelism?
Mark Dever
What do guess I’m going to say?
Jonathan Leeman
Pray?
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
Give some encouragement to the brother.
Mark Dever
Yeah, give examples.
Jonathan Leeman
No, no, no. I’m saying to you, give encouragement to that brother who’s like, Mark, I’ve been praying. Mark, my people just don’t evangelize. I’m kind of discouraged right now.
Encouragement For People Trying to Be Evangelistic
Mark Dever
Keep praying. Give examples. To encourage them, read Samuel Primes’ Power of Prayer, published by Banner of Truth, about the 1859 prayer revival in New York City. Great little account.
Jonathan Leeman
You’ve mentioned that so many times, I’ve not read it.
Mark Dever
It’s easier to read than a lot of stuff you have to read as the editor of 9Marks.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Can we evangelize by inviting people to church?
Mark Dever
Sure. I think generally what we’re doing is less than evangelism, but sure. Yeah, it’s a good thing to do. Hopefully, your church does. It is a place where the gospel is preached.
How Do You Teach Your Members to Evangelize?
Jonathan Leeman
How do you teach your members to evangelize?
Mark Dever
The main way, brother, is by the way I preach, and—
Jonathan Leeman
Explain that.
Mark Dever
—speaking the gospel clearly. Treating ideas that disagree with me respectfully but clearly, and sharply sometimes. Trying to…
Jonathan Leeman
Addressing non-Christians and how you talk to them in that moment.
Mark Dever
Yeah, just saying that Christianity is not stoicism because here’s how Christianity differs from Buddhism, you know, if you’re here today and you’re a Confucianist you know you probably think this and this, this is where we would say the Bible shows us a way that makes more sense. Just being direct in our Christian critiques of non-Christian ways of thinking and calling people to repent of their sins and trust in God.
Resources for Promoting Evangelism
Jonathan Leeman
What are other ways you train your church to evangelize?
Mark Dever
Give them good evangelistic literature to use.
Jonathan Leeman
Like?
Mark Dever
Point out testimonies. Greg Gilbert’s Who is Jesus. Give them good evangelistic testimonies. Hear the baptism testimonies every month.
Jonathan Leeman
Core seminar classes?
Mark Dever
Core seminar classes. Certainly have them on them. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Do you still promote Two Ways to Live and Christianity Explained? Are those resources you use?
Mark Dever
Yeah, Christianity Explored. Yeah. It’s all, all three of those are used. We have core seminar classes. We have the resources there. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
Somebody commented to me over the last weekend that they were encouraged that when people come here and they say, :Hey, I’d like to learn more about the gospel,” they’re not just directed to a class that’s mentioned.
They’re also often assigned an individual. “Hey, Suzy will sit down with you and go through Christianity Explained.”
Mark Dever
I’ll often say in my sermons, if you’re here today and you’re not a Christian, talk to the person next to you after the service.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
And there’ll be pastors standing at the doors on the way out, we’re happy to talk to you.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
Nothing we’d rather talk about.
Evangelizing In Today’s Culture
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Is it possible that it’s getting harder to evangelize in a given culture, in a given time and place?
Mark Dever
I would think the answer to that must be yes. But spiritually, no, in that people are always dead, but since evangelism is our action, um…I think the answer must be yes.
Jonathan Leeman
We’re always speaking to a graveyard, I’ve heard you say. Yet also, as you mentioned a moment ago, hey, my job’s on the line now in a way it wasn’t before.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
How do you encourage your church amidst those changing dynamics? If it’s getting harder for them.
Mark Dever
Uh-huh.
Jonathan Leeman
Than it was in 1970?
Mark Dever
I think than it was in 2010. Um…
Jonathan Leeman
Harder in 2010 than it was—oh, harder now than it was in 2010.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, I think that’s right. How to…
Mark Dever
Yeah. I mean, Obergefell was a big kind of cultural statement against the Bible.
Jonathan Leeman
It really was.
Mark Dever
I think that we have to be ever more explicit about telling people that we have to be willing to be strangers, we have to be willing to be sojourners, we have to be willing to be those who are not thought of as normal or in the mainstream. And you know, for some people, for everybody that can be hard in some ways, for some people it’s just going to be excruciating.
It’s going to make what was already a challenging task more challenging. But you know, we trust the Lord has a reason for backing us into the corners he backs us into. He knows exactly what he’s doing. Satan is not going to gain a step on him.
Jonathan Leeman
The good news is it’s going to require and we’ll be the recipients of, assuming we persevere, a stronger faith.
Mark Dever
Yeah, the gates of hell—the gates will not prevail against the church.
Jonathan Leeman
Amen. Any last comments, brother, on cultivating a culture of evangelism?
Mark Dever
Mack Stiles’ little book on evangelism in the Building Healthy Churches series is one of the best books. It is the best book I’ve read on doing exactly this, not just on evangelism, but on cultivating a culture of evangelism in your church where it is a normal thing for Christians to share the gospel with others.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Good word. Thanks for your time.
Mark Dever
Thank you, brother.
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