Episode 152: On Virtual “Church”
What is online church and can it replace in-person gatherings? Join Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman on this episode of Pastors Talk about virtual “church”. They discuss whether or not ” it can really exist and walk through what the Bible says about in-person church gatherings, pointing out all the qualities that a virtual “church” lacks. By cultivating an art of fellowship in your congregation, you can show your church the importance and beauty of in-person gatherings.
- Do Virtual Churches Exist?
- What the Bible Says About Virtual Church
- What is Missing From Virtual Church?
- Training Your Congregation on the Art of Fellowship
Show Notes
Article: Do Virtual Churches Actually Exist?, by Jonathan Leeman
On Virtual “Church”
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
And this is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk.
Mark Dever:
P -A -S -T -O -R -S talk.
Jonathan Leeman:
There we go. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with biblical vision—
Mark Dever:
For the glory of God.
Jonathan Leeman:
For practical research.
Mark Dever:
For the glory of God.
Jonathan Leeman:
For building healthy churches.
Mark Dever:
For the glory of God.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. I like you foregrounding that the way you do.
Mark Dever:
I never want to make God’s glory adjectival to our lives.
Do Virtual Churches Exist?
Jonathan Leeman:
This is why we do what we do. Speaking of Mark, have you ever done anything virtual? Like a virtual video game or attending a sports event and playing anything virtually.
Mark Dever:
I don’t like to refer to my own virtue. Thank you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Have you done anything virtual?
Mark Dever:
Virtual. I mean, like Skype calls.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. It’s it’s a virtual conversation. So sort of, yeah. Well, these days—
Mark Dever:
We’re having this room right now. I mean, this conversation right now, well, very carefully manufactured by Alberto to make it sound like we’re on the same continent, which I think is so cool the way they do that. You know?
Jonathan Leeman:
He says that he’s looking across the table at me.
Mark Dever:
Those little comments are clever. You’ve written those in. You have thought of everything.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you know people who have actually thought of a virtual church? They actually say that. They talk about virtual church. Did you know that?
Mark Dever:
Oh, I mean, I think ten years ago, maybe I saw a book with that title or something. You know, it’s avatars attending church in your stead or something.
Jonathan Leeman:
Wikipedia has a page called Internet Church. There’s an actual page on Wikipedia. It says, internet church, online church, cyber church, digital church.
Mark Dever:
Well, if you look at the way people play video games, I mean, it’s the same kind of thing. It’s experiencing a lot of, it’s Tron. It’s your old addiction. You know, it’s experiencing a lot of things on the computer.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, the computer says on the Wikipedia page that these things refer to a wide variety of ways that Christian religious groups can use the internet to facilitate free watch management.
Mark Dever:
But wouldn’t it be sad?
Jonathan Leeman:
Facilitate their religious activities, particularly prayer, discussion, preaching, and worship services.
Mark Dever:
If all eHarmony resulted in was a Zoom call. I mean, if that was like the apex of the relationship.
Jonathan Leeman:
A Zoom call in eHarmony, your point being that would be unsatisfactory as a relationship.
Mark Dever:
It’s as unsatisfactory as what you’re calling a virtual church, close quote, a non-gathering gathering.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Would you be excited about a virtual family dinner?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, although let’s turn it around. Like, there’s a difference between you and me being in separate rooms, and I cannot see you, and I cannot hear you.
Jonathan Leeman:
On the phone.
Mark Dever:
Right. So it is a blessing to be able to hear somebody somewhere else and even see them while they’re talking.
Jonathan Leeman:
A phone call, a Zoom call.
COVID and Virtual Church
Mark Dever:
Yes. So, I don’t want to be careful. On the other hand, I don’t want to dismiss that. I’m thankful for that. That is much more than nothing. It is not the same thing as actually being together, but it is to thank God for the goodness that is there.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, amen. I don’t want to take away from that.
Mark Dever:
I take it by your question that you’re thinking that the word virtual just does not go with the word church, and I agree.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, that’s what I want to talk about. And I’m not so much interested in kind of piling on all the churches in this COVID moment who are doing live stream services and…
Mark Dever:
More like your own.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, we’re gathering. We’ve been gathering.
Mark Dever:
Before that, you were doing live-stream services.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, we had Zoom calls. That’s right. I’m not so much interested in that, but this moment is… I think forcing us all to ask this question a little bit more carefully because, of course, virtual churches existed before, but now we’re really thinking about it.
Mark Dever:
Which is why your book, One Assembly, was so useful.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, it came out at an ironic moment. And just last week, I wrote an article called, “Do Virtual Churches Exist?” And we thought it’d be worth having this conversation with you on the topic. Do they exist? Yes or no? Do virtual churches exist?
Mark Dever:
Yes and no.
Jonathan Leeman:
Explain?
Mark Dever:
Yes, in the sense that those are two English words. That makes sense together; I understand what you mean by them. I could write a definition right now of what that thing is to which they refer.
Jonathan Leeman:
You could go to the Wikipedia page, apparently.
What the Bible Says About Virtual Church
Mark Dever:
There it is. No, in the sense of, as I understand from the Bible, what a church is, it does not seem to have the essential qualifications met by telecommunications.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Etymology from the Bible doesn’t exist because—explain that.
Mark Dever:
Well, theology from the Bible. Etymology would be a gathering. But the theology of what it is doesn’t seem to work by just being a kind of appearance of presence. It seems like we need actual joint presence.
Jonathan Leeman:
By etymology, I mean what the word means, which you’ve taught me so well. Ecclesia, gathering.
Mark Dever:
Right.
What is the Church?
Jonathan Leeman:
Acts 18, Luke and Ephesus. It’s funny; I think people understand that we can have Christian conferences and denominational meetings and youth camps, and we don’t call those churches, even though there’s preaching, praying, and singing. We know those aren’t churches. And yet, for some reason, we’re happy to call this thing a church, even though it’s not, biblically, right?
I think people don’t recognize that we’re actually changing the definition of the word church when we use the phrase virtual church. Do you agree with that? You’re supposed to agree with that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Well, I’m just trying to think of others. I think that, as limited beings in a fallen world, we are well used to taking the goods we can get. And sometimes all we can do is approximate what the good is we really want.
And we will come up with expressions or phrases which tie this different experience to the real desired experience that this is. So we can’t have Thanksgiving with our family, we have Friendsgiving, you know, or we can’t visit the person, you know, in the rest homes who will have a virtual visit, just a.
What we call it on the phone, even though a visit normally means you go see somebody, well, now we’re just using it to refer to a telephone call. So I think we’re quite familiar with doing this with the language. I don’t think it’s intended in any way maliciously, nefariously, or deceptively.
I think what you’re doing by raising the question is, is there being unwittingly smuggled in a redefinition of the church, of the noun church by the adjective virtual? And can we just cash that out? Like look at it, break it out, see what it is and see, can we do this or is this like referring to hot ice?
Does the virtual, which means really absent, negate something that’s of the essence of the church, which means really gathered? It’s other than that, but it does also include that necessarily.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I love your pastoral condescension, and I use the word condescension positively.
Mark Dever:
Like Jesus.
Jonathan Leeman:
Like Jesus, I appreciate that.
Mark Dever:
His condescending love.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly, I’ll appreciate the way you’re doing that.
Mark Dever:
Follow me insofar as I follow Christ.
Jonathan Leeman:
People aren’t doing it nefariously, they’re doing it for good reason. Nonetheless, are they at risk of losing something that they really need to have and should have? That’s our concern.
Mark Dever:
Well, yes, and you can say that in staccato fashion again. Do you do that when you get irritated with Shannon? I told you I did not want oysters again tonight.
Jonathan Leeman:
Shannon would never make oysters. That was weird. But you know, people are going to remember what I said now.
Mark Dever:
Did you take classes to learn to do this?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, preaching class, you know, all sorts of tricks and tools like that.
Mark Dever:
Was Colonel Sanders your professor?
Jonathan Leeman:
Colonel Sanders? I didn’t know he did the staccato thing. All right, Kentucky man, speaking of Colonel Sanders, we have etymology; that’s what the church means, the word church means, right? And there’s a reason why Jesus probably chose that word, we assume, okay? But I think we also have exegesis, where Jesus says, where two or three gather in my name.
Mark Dever:
Well, do we assume when he was speaking Aramaic, he was saying something like khal, for the Hebrew, for gathering assembly?
Jonathan Leeman:
The word in the Septuagint, in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, of Ecclesia, the one it always translates is Khal.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, yeah.
What is Missing From Virtual Church?
Jonathan Leeman:
So yeah, I assume that’s what he was saying. Two or three gather in my name there.
Mark Dever:
I am.
Jonathan Leeman:
There’s a spatial word there. I am with or among. There’s another spatial word with them. So you got three of them, gather, there, with. So, there is a very real sense.
Mark Dever:
Even in the am, I am, there’s a spatial intention.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s exactly right.
Mark Dever:
Why are you pushing this point?
Jonathan Leeman:
Because in this COVID moment, where the conveniences of virtual and online church are becoming more and more apparent to Christians.
Mark Dever:
Well, and the limitations.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m sorry.
Mark Dever:
Some people like the convenience of it, but other people, and sometimes the same people, are commenting on how inferior it is to actual meetings.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, no, that’s right. Some people feel that as well, but nonetheless, when life throws us challenges, I’m sorry, when life throws challenges at the church and its doctrine, disputes over the Trinity, those are the moments in which we have to stop and reflect on our doctrine and think, why do we believe what we believe and what exactly do we believe?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So, this anti-gathering disease has made us think about the gathering.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, and whether or not such a thing, because they existed before, whether or not such a thing called a virtual church can actually exist.
Mark Dever:
But don’t we exist only by the virtue of Christ?
Jonathan Leeman:
We exist by…
Mark Dever:
Our own virtues.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, okay, well, there, that would be an argument that a virtual church person would make, right? They would say the church exists by virtue of Christ, whereas you and I, by virtue of our union in Christ and the new covenant.
Mark Dever:
Well, really, running through the different meanings of the word virtue, aren’t we here?
The Reality and Encouragement of Your Local Church
Jonathan Leeman:
You and I would say, actually, if Jesus says, I’m there in the gathering, like there, like this assembly, this geographic assembly represents me, then you and I want to say, one of the local churches exists by virtue of its assembling.
The church is an assembling people, right? And I think we’re anxious that we not lose whatever it is He intended for us in those things.
So that brings me to my next question, Mark. What are some of the things we lose that the internet church misses out on? What do we miss out on in the virtual church? What’s lost?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think we lose so much, it’s almost easier to say what we keep. I mean, what we keep is the direct communication from the front, as it were, imagining a sanctuary, you know, a meeting hall.
But even then, you’re only getting the communication that’s given by the person who’s not with you, who doesn’t see your face, who doesn’t see all the faces, who hasn’t been together in the room while we’ve been singing. I mean…
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s one way.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So I think you’re capturing everything a camera would catch if it were pointed at the front of a typical Christian church meeting, but you’re not capturing how the room feels. You’re not capturing the conversations you had on the way in.
You’re not capturing the sights you have of this saint and that saint as you’re looking at them as you’re singing or during a scripture reading or the conversations you have afterwards or, you know, we’re not even mentioning baptism in the Lord’s Supper.
So there’s… You’re not capturing their singing encouraging you. You’re not capturing the amens being said after prayer or other expressions of deep-seated agreement with things that are said in the sermon.
You’re not capturing the encouragement of seeing that lady there that you’ve been praying for, that you haven’t seen in church in two months, or the sadness of seeing the one spouse there without the other one who’s recently died.
I mean, We could just go on and on imagining what trying to reconstruct all the threads of that social reality that is the congregation we assemble every Lord’s Day together, the sun coming through the windows and the encouragement we take it once again seeing these people there for the 700th time.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s not just social realities; what you’re describing is the realities of physical embodiment.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Where three-dimensional creatures were not avatars.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
We don’t exist in cyberspace.
Training Your Congregation on the Art of Fellowship
Mark Dever:
But those are such cool words. I mean, avatar, cyberspace. I mean, I feel like I’m a Hollywood character with these kinds of words. But are we surprised the generation struggles with this, that we’re, you know, 14-year-old guys are spending 10 hours on a video game?
I mean, they have relationships online with other real human beings they’ve never even met who live in other countries. They’re playing video games with, in some sense, with them at the same time.
Jonathan Leeman:
And… every pastor out there I trust knows, cause he’s read the articles that talk about how such realities are attenuated and thin and we don’t want those 14-year-olds to spend all day on video games.
We want them to have real relationships and learn how to look people in the eye, give a firm handshake, and have the tough; we know that. And I think I just want to say to all of those pastors who recognize that in other domains, hey, it applies here, too.
You want your people to have those kinds of embodied real experiences with the gathered church.
Mark Dever:
You know I just think one of the things that you can do with what they’re calling, quote, live stream, close quote, well, you could slip a recording in of something that was done an hour before.
And then you might call it live stream, but it’s not live stream anymore. Now it’s a sermon that was given last night, but you’re watching it this morning.
Jonathan Leeman:
What’s your point?
Mark Dever:
Well, you’re beginning to play with the reality of time. I mean, so I could all of a sudden, in this livestream, have a dead preacher. I could have a recording of a wonderful R.C. Sproul message from 2005.
It’s not bad for me to sit around and read a book by R.C. Sproul, but as we gather, in what sense are we gathering if R.C., who’s long been with the Lord, is now preaching to us, as it were, through this recording of his preaching?
So even the whole idea of this being a virtual assembly, it’s like, well, it can be, but it also, the assembly is so attenuated, it can even be applied to people who are no longer with us.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. You’re making apparent the fact that we really are changing the definition of a church.
Mark Dever:
Yes, as opposed to a preacher, you can’t have a physically dead preacher in the pulpit before you in a live assembly. You know, you’re going to at least have the preacher has to be alive and looking at you in the face.
Teaching Biblical Fellowship
Jonathan Leeman:
I also want to think about it from the standpoint of a witness; think about 1 Corinthians 14:24 and 25, where the non-Christian comes in, sees the assembly, and says, God really is among you.
The non-Christian feels that three-dimensional realities are rubbing shoulders with these other people, and they’re speaking in tongues and prophesying in the context of Corinth and saying God is here. Right? And how do you do that virtually in the way that’s meant?
Okay. So I wrote, as I mentioned, this article last week on virtual church, right? Do they exist? Somebody sent something to the mailbag, and here is what he said to the 9Marks mailbag:
He asked how we could increase the worth of our fellowship in churches and Sunday morning gatherings so that people would not say they could do church online. As you say in your article, people can download sermons and quality praise music online. And since that’s the context content of our services, they’re tempted to say they’ve done church.
But I think where we’ve failed pre-COVID is developing and training people in the art of fellowship so that they know that doing church is more than just listening to a sermon and singing. It’s about connecting with God’s people in Jesus’ name. I’d appreciate hearing your and Mark’s thoughts on this topic.
Well, brother, your wish is my command. Mark, what are your thoughts on this topic? Have we failed to help Christians understand that doing church is more than just sitting there on Sunday morning so that they’re not satisfied? If we had done a better job, they would recognize the average old church isn’t the real thing. I really want to—
Mark Dever:
Well, I’m not too interested in the question of whether we have failed. So the question of what church is.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep
Mark Dever:
So, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, the testimonies at a baptism, the experience of witnessing the baptism while the one being baptized, and having the Lord’s Supper and sharing that together are two fundamental realities taught us directly by Jesus himself that we cannot do virtually.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so, your answer to the brother is, maybe we’ve not done a good job in our baptisms?
Mark Dever:
I’m not trying to speak to what we’ve done a good job on or not. That’s going to vary from church to church. I’m trying to positively speak about what it is that requires us to assemble.
Obeying Jesus’ commands requires us to physically assemble. We cannot baptize unless we’re together. We cannot have the Lord’s Supper unless we’re together.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, but at that point, aren’t people just saying, well, you know, we can take the Lord’s Supper at home? I mean, a lot of people aren’t doing that, right? I hear.
Mark Dever:
If that’s their understanding of 1 Corinthians 11, that would just not be… Certainly, my understanding of 1 Corinthians 11 is what Christians have historically understood by 1 Corinthians 11. We need to gather as a church in order to have the Lord’s Supper together. That is the very nature of it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, he says in verses 18 and 19, when you come together as a church, and he says in verse, what is it, 30, 29, I think, be sure you discern the body. And he says in verse 32 or 33, wait for one another. So yeah, I think just the verses themselves bear—
Mark Dever:
And he’s not referring to some of them who are just having trouble with their internet connections. Amen?
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. Yeah, that’s right. But it does seem like our instincts too—I know you want to be negative here—it does seem like many Christians’ instincts to easily allow for this thing called the internet church when it’s just like, I wish you better understood what church is.
What Does It Mean to Congregate?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think if we’ve been doing church often in a way which is in a darkened room with a lit up front and loud so that we can’t really hear each other, all we hear is what’s coming from the front, we’ve kind of been preparing people for the TV screen or the movie screen as the equivalent of church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
So we’ve done a lot of things to prepare people to accept this unwittingly.
Jonathan Leeman:
You and I could go on a rant about multi-service and multi-site, right? In the church, in that regard, it’s a performance, an event I watch.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. It’s not the body gathered around the family dinner table. You know, why not just put it on the screen?
Mark Dever:
But also even more, even in the one assembly at one time in one place, live all together, the way it’s done can attenuate the congregational participation in it as a being of any obvious significance.
Jonathan Leeman:
Performance music, as opposed to congregational significance.
Mark Dever:
The whole appearance of the thing, the whole thing is considered only as what’s being viewed upfront. It’s fairly irrelevant to it if there are three people sitting out there. Or 4,000, so long as somebody’s paying the bills of the people up there, they can keep doing this.
They keep having the same sort of, you know, church. And that’s, in that sense, we’ve been preparing them for complete passivity, which would easily transfer to being something that you would merely watch on the screen on your computer.
We Were Created for Community in the Church
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Last kind of cul-de-sac to drive down briefly here in this. Let’s say someone’s listening who’s been quote-unquote hurt by a church. And so they consider the virtual camp to be a kind of happy Mark Deverium.
So they understand the benefits of a church, the sermon, the music, and they get that without some of the difficulties of gathering in person and having to enter into those awkward relationships, hurtful relationships. What would you say to that person? What are they missing out on? It’s like, no friend, be in the gathering, join the gathering.
Mark Dever:
Just all the things that we’ve been saying. You know, these are the ways the Lord intends to strengthen you, intends to encourage you, intends to use you to encourage and bless others, ways that people are instructed, ways that people are for Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
Even if it means working through those past hurts.
Mark Dever:
Of course.
Jonathan Leeman:
And it really hurts.
Mark Dever:
And part of it does. I mean, that’s its nature.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Any last comments, brother, on this question of virtual churches and whether or not they exist and what are people missing out on and so forth?
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Well, thank you for your time, brother. And I say that really, not virtually.
Mark Dever:
I can’t believe the way Alberto makes it sound like we’re on the same continent.
Jonathan Leeman:
It is something special, isn’t it?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
All right.
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