On Criteria for Church Discipline (Pastors Talk, Ep. 253)
What are the criteria for going public with church discipline? On this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk through three considerations that pastors should take into account before bringing a case of church discipline to the general public. They discuss the importance of having a plurality of elders when you are considering church discipline and how to handle situations where elders disagree on church discipline. Dever and Leeman finish their conversation by reminding the listeners that we are all sinners and fall short of God’s holiness.
- Biblical Criteria for Church Discipline
- Why a Plurality of Elders Matters in Church Discipline
- How to Handle Disagreement Over Church Discipline
- Grace for Sinners
Related Resources:
Books: Church Discipline
Podcast: Church Discipline: A Difficult and Necessary Task, On Church Discipline, On How to Prepare a Church to Practice Discipline, History and Discipline of the Local Church (with Greg Wills)
Journal: Church Discipline: Medicine for the Body
Articles: A Church Discipline Primer, “Don’t Do It!!” Why You Shouldn’t Practice Church Discipline, A Biblical Theology of Church Discipline
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is Jonathan Leeman. Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to help pastors build healthy churches. Learn more at 9Marks.org. And if you’ve been blessed by 9Marks, feel free to go to the website and figure out how to donate. Today, Mark… Hey Mark.
Mark Dever:
Hello, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman:
We’ve talked about church discipline as a concept in a couple of episodes.
Mark Dever:
A few times.
Jonathan Leeman:
So back in episode 34, we talked about the journal that we did on it.
Mark Dever:
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. These episodes have numbers?
Jonathan Leeman:
They do.
Mark Dever:
What number is this one?
Jonathan Leeman:
I sincerely don’t know. I have no idea.
Mark Dever:
So there is something called episode 34. Like I could go to the Library of Congress and ask for Pastors Talk podcast, episode 34, and they bring this to me on some vinyl or something.
Jonathan Leeman:
Or you could talk about episode 62, which talked about preparing your church to practice church discipline.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
What we’ve not talked about, and might be worthwhile, because this is a question pastors in a very nitty-gritty way have to work through, is like, when do I know it’s time to actually take this public to the whole church? That is to say, what are the criteria of church discipline?
I mean, I think you and I had assumed that any sin in your life or mine might be something that personally and privately, you might say, “Hey, Mark, X, Y, Z,” or whatever. But that’s not any sin that you would take before the whole church, right?
Mark Dever:
Right. One of the writers in the Polity volume that I edited years ago talked about how there are minor sins. There are many things that you simply overlook in each other.
Jonathan Leeman:
There needs to be a place in the life of the church where we forbear with one another. Love, as scripture says, covers a multitude of sins and so forth.
Okay, so then what would the criteria be? Does the Bible speak to this? How do we figure that out? Is this one of those sins I take to the whole church, Pastor Mark?
Mark Dever:
I don’t know. As I recall, you wrote a book on church discipline.
Jonathan Leeman:
I did.
Mark Dever:
Did you have a chapter on this?
Jonathan Leeman:
I did.
Mark Dever:
What did you say?
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re gonna make this easy on me if you wanna do it like that. Well, I think Scripture gives us sample lists, right? I think of 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, and it lists a number of sins there, but it’s not an exhaustive list, so I don’t think we’re gonna find…
Mark Dever:
Just like Paul’s gift lists aren’t exhaustive.
Biblical Criteria for Church Discipline
Jonathan Leeman:
As I look at the biblical data in general and think about these matters theologically, I think a sin would need to fulfill three criteria. Verifiable, formerly I used…
Mark Dever:
So it’s not debated.
Jonathan Leeman:
Correct. And it sort of meets the criteria of the evidence of two or three witnesses, taken from Jesus in Matthew 18 verse 16.
Mark Dever:
Which is taken from Deuteronomy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. So it’s not something… Well, we’ll come back to that. Number one, verifiable. Number two is significant.
Mark Dever:
Because you can imagine things that genuinely are sin and yet are insignificant.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, an example I often give…
Mark Dever:
This is gonna be something about me, isn’t it?
Jonathan Leeman:
If a man…
Mark Dever:
You’re looking right at me.
Jonathan Leeman:
…is selfishly…
Mark Dever:
Yeah, okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
…eating all the ice cream in the house.
Mark Dever:
You can use names.
Jonathan Leeman:
And his wife is like a sweetheart.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You keep selfishly eating all the ice cream in the…
Mark Dever:
She tends to call me dearie, but anyway, okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Dearie.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re selfish, and let’s suppose you kind of continue in it. You’re like, no, no, I don’t think that…
Mark Dever:
Well, it’s Southern milk chocolate, Harris Teeter.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly.
Mark Dever:
I’m gonna eat it.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s good stuff.
Mark Dever:
It’s really good stuff.
Jonathan Leeman:
And some might even call you, this person, unrepentant and kind of continuing to selfishly. Should that go before the whole congregation?
Mark Dever:
Well, it will in the matter of my girth, but I mean, in the specific action at the moment, I take it, is what you’re talking about. Is there a kind of greed a gluttony or an inconsideration of another person?
Yeah, but I think there, aren’t you really looking to be more like folly? I mean, the Lord will say whether or not it’s sin, but I mean, I think what you’re looking at is more certainly folly.
Jonathan Leeman:
Is it at least folly? Maybe there’s a certain selfishness of heart there. It’s hard to assess that, right?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, but I guess that’s your point that you don’t take before the church things that are genuinely foolish that the Lord can say…
Jonathan Leeman:
Maybe genuinely sin.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. But the Lord has to say that, whereas when you wanted to bring to me before the church, you wanted to be confident that it is in fact a sin.
Can Sins of the Heart be Disciplined?
Jonathan Leeman:
Because it’s verifiable, number one. And number two, it does seem to possess a certain significance. It’s not what you called a moment ago the minor sins, as older writers would have said. And then the third criterion I would say would be unrepentant, right?
I think that’s straightforward. But thinking about each of these a little bit further, what about sins of the heart? So I’m thinking right now about that first criterion, verifiable. What about sins of the heart, which are very big important sins like pride, and greed? Paul lists greed.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do we discipline for greed or pride?
Mark Dever:
We may be disciplined for greedy or prideful acts. I doubt we would discipline for the inner quality.
Jonathan Leeman:
Just the idea of it.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
But isn’t pride damning?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, but discipline, it’s not like the capital punishment of the spiritual world. It’s not like the most important thing, like you say, for the most important sins. It’s useful for a certain category, a certain spectrum of things. There can be things far more effectively damning that we’re not really able to use the church’s corporate witness.
Jonathan Leeman:
Just doesn’t have the competence to do that. I used to, instead of saying verifiable, I used to say outward, which is to say you can see with the eyes or hear with the ears. You’re not making guesses about people’s hearts.
Mark Dever:
Right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Maybe even informed guesses. What happens when you go before the congregation recommending an act of discipline based on, say, your gut sense of a guy, your interpretation of a guy?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Well, then you’re asking everybody to sort of pitch in what their assessment is. And if you’re not able to persuade them, given what you adduce as evidence that has led you to your conclusion, then you create division in the church. And you may be slandering that other person for what you’re saying is, in fact, not true.
Jonathan Leeman:
Which, once again, commends Jesus’ wisdom so that a matter may be established by two or three witnesses.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
On that first criterion, verifiable or outward. Think just a second longer about that second criterion, what I call significant or serious. What about something like anxiety, right? So anxiety can be a real sin.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, as can poor child-rearing.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
But you might not bring that before the church. Why is that?
Mark Dever:
Because I think it can be hard to tell sometimes whether or not some people are being difficult for a whole set of internal issues, but not self-consciously meaning to be fill-in-the-blank, not trusting in the Lord. And yet for this combination of reasons, they tend to have a lot of fear.
And while there’s no doubt that spiritual maturity would mean being able to trust the Lord, even in those kinds of situations, we know just by common human experience that there are very scary circumstances. Some people are particularly brought to fear by this kind of circumstances, others by those.
And to associate sin with someone’s inability to trust the Lord in a challenging, as challenging circumstance is the kind of charge God can bring and His Spirit may well convict of. But it seems a little beyond what we can do specifically. We can teach and warn, but that’s it.
Sins That Christians are Guaranteed to Commit
Jonathan Leeman:
Something I’ve said from time to time, and I’m happy for you to correct or improve on this. There’s a set of sins that we can, as it were, expect genuine born-again, Holy Spirit-indwelled Christians to continue committing. Anxiety?
Mark Dever:
Like anxiety.
Jonathan Leeman:
And those that we kind of don’t expect, or at least you can’t ask us as a congregation to continue to affirm your profession of faith if you’re…
Mark Dever:
A deliberately long-plotted bank robbery.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, exactly. Leaving your wife, whatever. Just like, I don’t know how you can say you’re born again and do that. Where anxiety…
Mark Dever:
Well, particularly a long-plotted one. An immediate sin, even of a very serious nature like murder, if it’s not premeditated, you know, or a hasty suicide. I mean, there’s, man, the human heart, there’s all kinds of things that can happen hastily, I think.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fair to say it’s easier to discipline or take before the church for discipline sins of commission rather than omission.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, yeah. Because all of us are constantly omitting doing most good things we could do.
Jonathan Leeman:
Loving your neighbor as yourself.
Mark Dever:
That’s right, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Giving to the church.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
A husband who lives with his wife in an understanding way.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Now I think to talk about the negative, how do you live with your wife in a way that is not understanding of her? That can become… And when does that get so bad that it is disciplinable by the church congregation, you know, by the congregation as a whole?
And what’s the distinction between that and earlier stages of it? That’s why we have elders in local churches to figure out those specifics in that situation.
Is There a Difference Between Regret and Repentance?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. So verifiable or outward, number one. Number two, serious significance of some kind. Number three, unrepentant. And in some ways, this can be one of the harder ones to assess. Is there a difference between regret and repentance?
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah. Yeah. You can well imagine that when you or I do something that’s wrong and we have paid the price for it or we’re threatened to pay the price for it or we’re, yeah, we may be, we even genuinely see the folly of it. We can regret it.
Yeah. But that’s different than having a sense of it, offending the God whom we love and the sense of how good he’s been to us and a sense of how we, oh, we really wish we had not done that. And we know that we have. And so we ask him to forgive us because of Christ. Yeah, that’s just a very different thing.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, so a guy struggles with pornography.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, which is sadly common when dealing with a congregation full of young people.
Jonathan Leeman:
A mother struggles with losing her temper with her children.
Mark Dever:
Again, very common when dealing with a congregation full of young families.
Jonathan Leeman:
They do it, they feel bad. It keeps going week after week. Is that just regret and therefore we should move to discipline or is that… does the fact that they feel bad after that qualify as repentance?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think the two examples you gave are a bit different. One is just a straight-up sin. The other one is an exasperation with a wonderful calling to be a mother.
Jonathan Leeman:
That leads to sin.
Mark Dever:
Well, it’s a frustration that may lead to sin but is not necessarily going to do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, instead of sorting out that particular question with, say, a parent losing patience. Let’s just go to the easier one, the pornography one. So a guy feels bad. He continues to do it. So once upon a time, I met with a guy who struggled with these kinds of things.
And he genuinely, best I could tell, felt terrible. And he would initiate with me. He would call me up and say, that he’s the one who started the relationship for these purposes.
Mark Dever:
Which is generally a good sign.
Jonathan Leeman:
Of course, it is. But it would just happen again and again and again. And I remember one time I was sitting at a Burger King, of all places, and he confessed this big slew of recent indulgences on these grounds.
And I remember thinking to myself, I’ve tried every trick in the book. I’ve tried every pastoral tool I’ve had. I’ve carrot, stick, encouraging, gracious, stern, warning. I’m out of tools here. And I remember thinking to myself, does this need to go to church discipline?
Mark Dever:
And you and I, when we were in the same church, we have seen cases like that. They’re very rare. I can think of one or two.
Jonathan Leeman:
How do you… Because I do think pastors, they’ll find themselves in precisely this sort of circumstance. Any counsel for a brother pastor in those situations?
Why a Plurality of Elders Matters in Church Discipline
Mark Dever:
Yeah. First of all, this is why the Lord has given you a plurality of elders in your church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. Oh gosh. So helpful.
Mark Dever:
So that you are not alone in thinking this through. It would be fairly easy for different subsections of our board. I think they come up with an agreed-upon set of metrics having to do with porn use or non-use, you know, how much, how long, for how long, how long since, which I don’t know they capture the heart of it.
I mean, it’s not insignificant, but… And when churches make different decisions on any of those questions even, it can end up looking very different who you have served. So I think churches have to figure that out and figure out what to them seems reasonable repentance.
What to them seems evidence that I know it’s just been 14 months, but I’m pretty confident by what these 14 months have been made up of that going forward in his life, our brother is going to continue to, you know, abstain from this bad thing and pursue this good thing.
Jonathan Leeman:
A good text here is 2 Corinthians 7, and the distinction between worldly sorrow and godly sorrow and the description of godly sorrow indicate a kind of zeal to fight against this. And I remember with this situation, this brother I’m describing, little by little it got better.
It started with various kinds of visits and people you’d meet online, and then it moved to pornography. And then it was seven days a week to two days a week to one day a week to several weeks would go by. So over several months.
Mark Dever:
There was a slow escape.
Jonathan Leeman:
There was a slow escape.
Mark Dever:
Which are surprisingly rare.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. And I was very grateful to see that though. But yeah, there were many times I was just like, ah, what do I do? Okay.
Mark Dever:
So these kinds of questions, Jonathan, that we’re thinking of, whether it’s about pornography or any of the other issues we could think of with church discipline all the way over various kinds of addictions, all the way over to non-attendance. These are the kinds of issues that a good body of elders talks about.
They know the individuals well enough in the congregation to know what particular kind of things they are struggling with. They’re praying for this person and other people like that. So there are resources, the resources that we need are not mainly found in a book outside of scripture, though James can be helpful, 1 Peter can be helpful, they’re certainly inerrant, they’re true.
But a lot of the resources we need are the relationships that already exist and how to work through those relationships. Because I think that’s the bit Satan has the hardest time scrambling. He may mess up your words, and your kids. He may cause them to misremember or they may feel got at.
But when you remember an old conversation with a friend and you remember what he was saying you used to agree with them, and you really see, okay, I am the one who has changed. And then, Lord, help me investigate those changes.
And we can try to be the kind of people that they know that if they are having trouble as a Christian or want to grow, come talk to us. I was encouraged a couple of Sundays ago when that was exactly one person’s testimony, they were listening to the sermons from the Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
They were attending another church way out in the suburbs. And finally, they just decided to come on in here to be a part of this congregation. And the person at the door just walked through the previous pastor and what he had said and done. And yeah, they were being responsible and they were not fleeing sin.
Jonathan Leeman:
The individual at the door or the previous pastor?
Mark Dever:
Both. But the door was telling me what the previous pastor had done. But so often when we’re looking at something like church discipline, we’re looking at people who are the most common one is probably something like that, like a non-attendance.
When we don’t know they’ve gone to another church, they haven’t talked to people like they should. They’ve not brought us in and it makes it very difficult to get involved and to know how… Anyway, the point I was going to in all that is we need elders in each local church to sort through the specifics.
The things, whether it’s about someone’s pornography use or someone not attending for a season, there are more particulars you want to know. And if you can have people who already have an existing relationship with the person who’s struggling with the sin, that’s part of how you as elders kind of calculate and figure out what would be good to try to lead this congregation to do.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Two comments and a question. Comment one, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been sitting at an elder table with these tough situations in front of us. And it’s the plurality of that moment. I just think, thank you, God, because I’m feeling a bit lost right now. I’m so glad.
Mark Dever:
There was one situation recently where we were talking about this one brother and four or five of the elders had had difficult conversations with him. And all of them, I think, had resolved those situations pretty well. And then I told them about an intemperate remark I felt I had made some years ago to this person.
And how thankful I was to have a group of elders that had not done that. And they have continued in their not-being-antagonized way and hopefully have been making good progress with this brother.
Look to Scripture for Wisdom
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. A second comment I was going to make is just sort of to reaffirm what you said a second ago, there isn’t necessarily a rule book, a mathematical formula one can apply in all of these situations. It really does require wisdom, which is a property of knowing the people, knowing their maturity, knowing their background, and the collection of wisdom we have.
Mark Dever:
Knowing the Word.
Jonathan Leeman:
Knowing the Word and how it applies in this and that situation. This is in a church discipline scenario. This is government, but I think there’s something here for us thinking about Solomon.
The two prostitutes, my baby, know my baby. He says, bring me a sword. And the way the narrator then sums that up in verse 28, chapter three, 1 King 3:28 is, “and the people were amazed, God had given wisdom to Solomon to do justice”.
So the goal was justice, but what did he need to do in that real-life practical, the Bible doesn’t script out which prostitute really had the, you know, was the mother, he needed wisdom. So he looks at the situation, he sizes it up, anyhow, in a church discipline situation, again, without mathematical formulas, we need precisely such wisdom to make good judgments.
Mark Dever:
And generally, that wisdom is gonna come corporately through the elders’ discussion. It’s not gonna be a lightning bolt with just one guy.
How to Handle Disagreement Over Church Discipline
Jonathan Leeman:
Right, which leads to my question, what do you do when your elders disagree on let’s say one of these criteria? I don’t think he is unrepentant. I do think he’s repentant. I think he, no, I just think he feels bad because he was caught. Well no, I think he’s really taking steps. And so I think this is serious. I don’t think this is serious. What then?
Mark Dever:
Well, you’re describing what is the case sometimes in elderships when they fall on a hard case, there are arguments to be made on both sides. Sometimes you’ll have all elders who will tend to make those arguments on both sides in order to make sure that they don’t lead the wrong person to spend months or years of their time locked away.
So yeah, these are hard situations, which is again, why we have a plurality of elders to talk them through. That’s unsatisfying, isn’t it? But I mean, it’s just like, it’s so hard to put rules on this. It’s the nature of these kinds of things that they require judgment.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you keep talking and praying? Let’s suppose it’s a divided board.
Mark Dever:
You and I have served before on the same board, and we’ve seen it divided over church discipline questions.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
That’s one of the more common issues that we will see division among the elders on.
Jonathan Leeman:
Seven elders vote to remove this dude. Six votes against. Do you move forward?
Mark Dever:
You do. At least in our church, you certainly would.
Jonathan Leeman:
You might not say, oh man, we’re divided. Let’s slow down. Let’s keep praying about it.
Mark Dever:
Well, no, you could say that and then you might get a majority agreeing to that. But if there’s no any, if there’s not another vote taken relevant to this topic, that last one with the majority would stand.
Jonathan Leeman:
I remember one time when we were thinking about readmitting a guy who is, there’s questions, some were saying he’s repentant and others of us were saying, no, he’s not. And I remember the final vote was like 9 to restore, 10 not to restore.
And I recall we all just felt the heaviness of that moment. And in that situation, it was clear, well, we don’t restore. If the majority of you guys are saying no, because there was no action then we then had to take.
Mark Dever:
Jonathan, so many of these things we’ve been talking about are not clearly seen in the scriptures. So how do we…
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, no. What do the Corinthians do in 2 Corinthians 2 where he says, the punishment given to them by…
Mark Dever:
The majority.
Jonathan Leeman:
The majority. So, now did they take a vote according to Robert’s rules? I don’t know. But one way or another, Paul knew that not every person there voted to remove this person.
Mark Dever:
Right.
Jonathan Leeman:
But most did.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
So apparently this is something they struggled with in Scripture as well. In the early church. Okay, so we have our three criteria, verifiable slash outward, significant, and unrepentant. Maybe one more, the person still claims Christ.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. What you’re referencing there is that we as a church are committed to a cognitive core of the truth of the gospel and its near implications that you can read in our own church’s statement of faith.
We think any of those can be backed up from scripture. And if you are somebody who wants to be a member of our church, but you will not affirm any of those, that would cause us to not forward your membership.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. And if somebody was a member who said, I just no longer believe in Jesus…
Mark Dever:
Well, then they should let us know that and then they should make it clear that they are not claiming to be a Christian anymore and then we should acknowledge that at a church members meeting.
Jonathan Leeman:
Whereas in a case of church discipline, if the person is adamant on, you know, I’m a Christian and I think it’s okay for me to live with my girlfriend. Then that…
Mark Dever:
Yeah, there’s a lot of miscommunication, mis-teaching perhaps that has gone on somewhere that he needs to hear something different so he can be disabused of that idea.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Brother, any last comments on this question of the criteria of when to go public? Or what kind of sins activate this possibility?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I would just say, brother pastors, listen, think of what you can do without going to your congregation. And you realize, among other things, it means you can do a bunch of things other than excommunicate. But if you do take something to the congregation, we want to give them as much information that they can use to reliably vote.
And yet keep back as much information as we possibly can with the court case still being able to proceed. Because we want to cover up and give the benefit of the doubt to somebody who we can’t say with the knowledge of God is guilty of this and who himself has not admitted it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. I tend to think we need to say enough so that the congregation can act with integrity in their decisions. So you name the category of sin, sexual immorality or something, non-attendance. Long conspiracy to rob a banker. But not so much information, A, people will be tempted to sin, B, family members would be embarrassed, and a host of other possibilities.
Mark Dever:
Which possibilities may cause you or me to sin?
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. But if it does, you and I will always be, always I trust, be marked by the Holy Spirit’s leading us to acknowledge that sin and to repent of it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
And in that sense, we make the point that the local church, the healthy local church is only for non-Christians. The healthy local church has…
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you mean sinning Christians?
Mark Dever:
Well, I’m gonna keep going.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Grace for Sinners
Mark Dever:
Only for non-Christians who will themselves own their sin and then repent of it. For anybody who is not sinning, we don’t really have anything. We are for sinners and for repenting sinners only. Now, if you have sinned, you won’t repent of it, we also have nothing for you.
So what we have is really only for sinners who are, who initially repent, become Christians, but then are in a continuing sense, repenters, as we continue to understand the sin in our lives and try to turn from it.
Jonathan Leeman:
And if I could just state the obvious for anybody who missed what you’re doing right now, I appreciate your saying all of that, because that’s a warning against a kind of censorious, overly critical, uncharitable, ungracious congregation.
Mark Dever:
Or senior pastor.
Jonathan Leeman:
Or senior pastor. So even as we seek to help one another follow Jesus by correcting sin, it’s in the environment of we’re all sinners here, living by grace, seeking to repent. Thanks for your time.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, thank you, brother. The church is a place for repenting sinners.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen.
Mark Dever:
And that’s why you and I are welcome there.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right.
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