On Firing Church Staff | Pastors Talk, Ep. 162
How should pastors go about firing church staff? On this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about the difficulty of firing a church staff member and how it can be done while still caring for the individual well. They advise pastors to redirect staff members to tasks that better serve their strengths rather than immediately firing them when they fall short. Finally, they discuss who has the authority to fire church staff and the different considerations that should be taken into account when firing elders versus non-elders.
- How Do You Fire Church Staff?
- Who Has the Authority in the Church to Fire Someone?
- Redirecting Staff When They Fall Short
- Firing Elders vs. Non-Elders
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
I am Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
And I am Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more at 9Marks.org.
Mark Dever:
Do you hear a bird?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s the weirdest thing.
Mark Dever:
Oh, Alberto got a new control desk that has these sounds.
Jonathan Leeman:
Alberto, stop it. Stop playing around.
Mark Dever:
So we are going to take these pastor songs to places they have never been before. Yeah, like the forest. Exactly. Thank you. Anyway…
Jonathan Leeman:
I feel inspired.
Mark Dever:
Go ahead.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, you and I regularly have these conversations with pastors and a conversation that we’ve been a part of in the past. I can think of a distinct time when we were doing this on one of our phone calls, you and I were on with some other pastor and he’s like, Mark, I got to fire this guy or I feel like I should, but I’m not sure if I should.
Mark Dever:
I can think of one friend who I’ve been a regular firing consultant with.
How Do You Fire Church Staff?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Well, yeah. So, that’s the conversation I want to have. Like how do you fire staff basically? We could talk about non-staff elders, but no, I want to talk about staff.
And I’m not talking about moral disqualification where it’s really clear the guy’s left his wife. No, just like, no, this isn’t working out for you.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. He’s not performing as he should. Right. I’m not satisfied with the job he’s doing.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. That’s the conversation I want to have with you.
Mark Dever:
Well, yeah, a couple of things just when we begin this. It is so much easier to advise that somebody fires somebody than to fire somebody. I just want to begin by acknowledging that.
And I do think it’s often easier for a person to realize, well, it can be hard to realize, but even that is easier to realize that a staff member should not be doing the job they’re currently doing. As hard as it can be to make that realization and say that out loud to yourself, that’s easier, at least for me, and I assume for a lot of guys that actually firing them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Doing it. Well, yeah, and I appreciate you saying that. And I kind of want to start at the high–
Mark Dever:
And I remember Philip Jensen telling me once in Australia on a trip, you know, we don’t fire people from our churches, we’re Christians.
Jonathan Leeman:
And he meant staff members?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Is Firing Someone in a Church Different than a Secular Setting?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Well, that leads me to my first question. Is there anything different between the church and the secular world and how do you think about firing someone? This is not an accounting firm.
Mark Dever:
I mean, how you make the decision to whether or not you should or how you go about doing it once having decided.
Jonathan Leeman:
Both, both.
Mark Dever:
On the decision of whether or you should, I’m not sure there would be a lot of difference. I think if they’re not doing the role that they’re supposed to do, to me anyway, that would seem to be pretty significant. And if I’m stewarding the church’s resources, then I want to be very careful to not squander them out of my fear of man and not wanting to displease this person.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, but now play up the Philip Jensen.
Mark Dever:
Philip was saying, look, we’re socialists here, we’re in Australia, we understand the job is part of somebody’s dignity and we take it as a very un-Christian thing to fire somebody. So he meant it provocatively and what I take from that is that we shouldn’t think in a worldly sense, we should be aware of the impact on the person and we should want to comprehensively try to care for that person. They’re not just a cog in a wheel performing a function and that’s all just well said.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, that’s true with any employee you have, if you’re in any place. But what I would think would be unique about the church is ordinarily, you have the two overlapping roles.
You have the staff role, but then you also, this is one of my church members. This is one of the sheep in the flock. And so even as I go about thinking about how to, okay, your first question, okay, I think this person needs to go.
It’s not the best place for him. Okay, how do I do that? You’re simultaneously having to wear the hat of pastor and supervisor. And I guess that would lead, you would agree with all of that.
Mark Dever:
I would. I don’t assume that when you have a church staff, depending on the size of the staff, the pastor is necessarily the immediate supervisor of each staff member.
Jonathan Leeman:
Sure.
Who Has the Authority in the Church to Fire Someone?
Mark Dever:
But it’s whoever would have that sort of hiring and firing responsibility.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
And certainly, as a pastor, if you have multiple staff as a pastor, you’ll almost certainly have that for somebody.
Jonathan Leeman:
So, okay, along those lines, should we be more long-suffering and persevering, have an impulse to train the guy, perhaps that is a little longer.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, definitely. If we think there’s any possibility in there of the person being able to do their job sufficiently well.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because this is a fellow member of the church.
Mark Dever:
Well, not only that, but there was a reason we would have hired them initially and yeah, trusting God’s providence.
Jonathan Leeman:
Who has the authority at your church to fire somebody?
Mark Dever:
It depends on the position.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, walk me through a couple.
Mark Dever:
Senior pastor, it would need to be the church and that would normally be led by the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
They’d make a recommendation, the church would do it.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
An associate pastor.
Mark Dever:
Same thing.
Jonathan Leeman:
Though the senior pastor at that point would be involved, but became a recommendation from the elders. You realize, I can’t work with this guy anymore.
Reasons to Fire a Church Staff Member
Mark Dever:
Well, when you put it, I can’t work with this guy. I mean, that’s a singularly poor way to summarize many of the situations in which you would fire somebody.
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t think this is working out for reasons X, Y, and Z. Probably not the best for him, not the best for the church. We’re being a poor steward of the resources.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, you’re not doing a good job.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Church secretary.
Mark Dever:
In our church, that would be under one of the associate pastors who helps to deal with administration.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Pastoral assistant.
Mark Dever:
The way we do things at our church, that would be either me or the associate pastor that’s their immediate supervisor.
Jonathan Leeman:
In one of these conversations that you and I had, with the pastor on the phone. There’s a couple of guys on the phone and we were thinking about it together. I remember you said this brother was facing the decision and he didn’t want to do it, but it seemed kind of evident he should do it.
And your words stuck with me and they were, you as the senior pastor need to be the one who’s willing to have those tough conversations when nobody else in the church is willing to have them. Can you explain that to us?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. The members of the church, understandably reside their hope, respect, and affection unusually in the one who teaches them God’s word regularly or most regularly. And that’s not merely for us to walk around and be thankful that we’ve been put in such a blessed position, but I think the Lord gives us that credit in order to use it.
So my own brother’s elders will often hand me a case when they won’t respond to anybody else, then they send in me. So it’s… And I understand what’s going on there. It’s, you know, they’ve tried the lesser remedies and now we need the more severe astringent to see if that can help the problem.
And I think the fact that it’s very difficult to fire somebody shouldn’t surprise us then that at least sometimes the senior pastor will be the one to do that. Now, again, if your church structure is larger like ours is and some folks are supervised by others with power, power, hiring, and firing, then they would take care of those things. But certainly in our structure, again, I am the one who definitely has that responsibility in a number of positions.
Jonathan Leeman:
But also knowing you, brother, you’re reluctant to do that. And would I be right in saying you will look for other ways to sort of manage a person out or you’ll shut them out?
Redirecting Staff When They Fall Short
Mark Dever:
Yeah, yes, I think I have many weaknesses as you’ve observed over the years, and I think one of them would be this. I would not naturally want to fire a person.
Jonathan Leeman:
Most people would not call that a weakness.
Mark Dever:
Well, even if I should fire a person, I will not naturally want to. So I would want to, it’s, you know, I don’t mind conflict cognitively with somebody else, interpersonally, even emotionally, I kind of don’t mind it, but I really don’t want to fire somebody.
Because generally, the person is there because they love the Lord, they love the church, they love the work. And oh, I just, I would so much rather redirect them and get them excited about something else that they could do positively and then try to help them do that and have them choose to leave.
Jonathan Leeman:
Listeners may notice I’m just kind of avoiding specifics in this conversation because it’s…
Mark Dever:
There are specifics.
What Should You Do Before You Decide to Fire Someone?
Jonathan Leeman:
There are specifics. Okay, so can you at an abstract level then, brother, just walk us through what that might look like a little more practically? You have discerned in your… It’s your discernment that so-and-so doesn’t fit, right?
They would benefit the body of Christ in other ways. Walk us through what you do now. Typically, if you’re, again, assuming you’re trying to avoid firing, if at all possible.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I would try to help the brother, assuming there’s a man, I’d try to help the brother understand what he is good at and what he wants to do and try to help him think through where he could do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think of one conversation I heard you once had. Now, this wasn’t firing somebody. This was different.
It’s analogous here. You or I think it was Matt Schmucker who used the phrase, do you think that’s your biggest bat? Because you want to swing your biggest bat.
Mark Dever:
Pretty sure that was not me. That’s a sports analogy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
That’d be Matt.
Jonathan Leeman:
I thought it was useful. Like, yeah, I do want to swing my biggest bat.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I thought it was over here, but now that you mention it, gosh, I really enjoy this.
Mark Dever:
Now, I can imagine Deepak summarizing my counsel to him once about doing the PhD in counseling and going over here to work as a counselor. That was very much the way we talked. We didn’t use that image, but he was headed toward a PhD in preaching and knowing Deepak well, I thought like,
Jonathan Leeman:
Dude you’re so good at these things.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, there might be other ways you’d be even better used.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now, some pastors will say we need very clear staffing managers and so forth. We’ll say we need very clear job descriptions and metrics. I feel like I’m boring you.
Mark Dever:
No, I just opened the window so we could enjoy the beautiful spring here in D.C.
Should Churches Have Performance Reviews?
Jonathan Leeman:
We’ll say we need these various metrics to walk a person through, say for a youth pastor as guidelines for potentially removing him. Would you advise those and maybe you review them annually? A job performance review and the annual job performance review are opportunities to go through those metrics that we’ve established and help usher somebody on or not so much.
Mark Dever:
Not so much as my short answer. I have not found myself able to use those well with other people. Again, that may be my poorness as a supervisor. There may be other brothers or sisters who are better able to do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re not necessarily opposed to them. You’re not saying that’s of the business world and therefore of the devil.
Mark Dever:
No, certainly not. I think they tend to bring up, there are tools that are made generally, not usually for the very specific situation in that position with that person at this time in the life of your church.
And it’s going to tend to be a way to bring up things that your natural relationship had not allowed you, caused you, or enabled you to bring up. And I would much rather in the natural course of relating to somebody, have conversations about concerns that I have rather than once a year ago, look, I was thinking this back in February, but I didn’t say it to you.
I noticed this in June, but I didn’t say it to you. And in July, August, September, August, I had a number of people say this to me about you. I mean, I’d rather just have those conversations naturally through the years I relate to the person.
Jonathan Leeman:
And rather responding than responding to that, well, Mark, that’s just the way you are. I think I want to commend that way of being. I think I want to commend having those kinds of relationships and that kind of intentionality, especially if you’re going to be a senior pastor or staff, church staff supervisor of some form to have the kind of organic natural relationships where it’s normal for me to talk to you in very forthright ways.
Where are you going to invite those things? So if you’re working under a senior pastor and you’ve never asked them, Hey, how do you feel like things are… I assume you’d commend or you’d encourage men or women on staff to ask their supervisors. Hey, how are things going?
Mark Dever:
Sure. And I’d encourage you to ask people you’re supervising how you’re doing as a supervisor.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Now we’re talking in the conversation so far sort of assumes a larger staff. But let’s suppose it’s just you and the church secretary, smaller staff, you have a part-time secretary, maybe full-time, whatever. Any special considerations there?
Mark Dever:
Well, I know some pastors who have avoided having the church secretary be a member of the church. So if he does need to fire the secretary, it’s not as big a deal. It can be awkward if he needs to fire the church secretary and that person and or woman is then they’re in church on Sunday and they disagree with his decision and they’re not happy with it.
Jonathan Leeman:
And the spouse isn’t happy with it.
Mark Dever:
Right. We have not taken that line. We’ve taken kind of the opposite line. We want them to be a member of the church.
We haven’t absolutely required it, but we’ve normally done that because it assumes we’re all pulling the same way and toward the same end with the same understanding of the gospel. And the same goals that we’re trying to achieve through our Monday to Friday, 9 to 5 time.
It is Important to Be Aware of Your Weaknesses
Jonathan Leeman:
Any ways that your view of all of this has changed over the years? Things you’ve learned, things you expected to not be the case?
Mark Dever:
I don’t know that I was aware this was a weakness of mine when we started. I think a few years in through a particular situation, I became aware this was a weakness of mine.
And I think now 20 odd years on, I’m confident this is a weakness of mine and that we have somewhat made up for that by other structures here and our staff and employment and hiring and firing practices. But again, praise God, I think we’ve had very few times we’ve needed to change up somebody in a position.
Firing Elders vs. Non-Elders
Jonathan Leeman:
Another question, brother, any difference in how you would conduct yourself in these kinds of conversations with a staff who is an elder versus a staff who is not an elder?
Mark Dever:
Well, if their position is eldering, so if they’re a staff pastor, one of our associate pastors, yeah, then while I would give them counsel, the same counsel, regardless of who has the official responsibility, the elders would have to act finally to encourage the congregation to remove them if they didn’t remove themselves. However, if it’s just an elder who happens to be a person who’s an elder, but who’s in another role, not a pastoral role—
Jonathan Leeman:
In the church.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, as an administrator of some kind or work with the building or something else, then we’d have power to hire and power to fire and then I think it would be a matter of just helping that brother to understand this and this is not, it’s not working out having you in this role.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, in that situation, it sounds like you would need
Mark Dever:
The very characteristics that set that person aside as an elder should be helpful in them being able to hear this. Cause we want, in all of us, as you mentioned a moment ago, we want to cultivate, we want to be people who are easy to criticize and who accept criticism well and with thankfulness.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
So, if that’s the spirit in our own lives or in homes, our own relationships, then that should be the spirit on the staff. There should be plenty of encouragement and happiness to know that criticism is given in love, that criticism itself is not inerrant. Criticism could be wrong and we just are all trying to do the same thing and help each other do it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, in that situation, there would have to be almost a split thing where on the one hand, the employment situation would have to be taken care of by whatever staffing structures you have and whoever that person’s supervisor is. But the removal from the position wouldn’t necessarily mean removal as an elder.
Mark Dever:
Oh, right. If it’s not a pastoral position, it would have nothing to do with their eldership.
Jonathan Leeman:
And they would potentially continue as an elder.
Mark Dever:
I assume they on what it is though.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I assume they would.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any lessons here about not being too bloated…
Mark Dever:
So for example, we’ve had a pastoral assistant before, which is just a hired position. You don’t have to be an elder to fulfill it. Though we usually fill it with guys who are aimed at being pastors, but they’re younger.
We’ve had pastoral assistants before become elders in the church. In a situation like that, I could fire them from their job tomorrow, but they would continue to be an elder.
How Quickly Should You Hire People?
Jonathan Leeman:
Any wisdom from all of this and being slow to hire too many people too quickly?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think you’re going to be slow to hire too many people too quickly.
Jonathan Leeman:
I know, and the way I asked that question, which probably wasn’t the best.
Mark Dever:
Well, you were bringing out the wisdom in the question. Jonathan, that was a wise question.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you.
Mark Dever:
Fraught with good, freighted with good suggestions in it.
Jonathan Leeman:
What’s the wise answer?
Mark Dever:
Come back next week you are on Pastors Talk W JDL DC!
Jonathan Leeman:
Having grown up in and around churches with the Fathers of Ministry of Music and just kind of knowing the insides of offices and being around that. And then being a Capitol Hill intern and then so forth. Something that’s always been.
Mark Dever:
And the Byzantine world of the 9Marks staff.
Jonathan Leeman:
And then that as well, which is housed in the church, so I have plenty of interaction with the church staff there. One of the burdens I’ve always had is recognizing that very often people, sometimes not often, sometimes people will come in as young Christians and a church will hire them and they’re a new believer.
Mark Dever:
That’s dangerous.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s what I feel like.
Mark Dever:
That’s a bit of a high explosive. That’s like… Because if this doesn’t go well, that could hurt their spiritual life. You gotta be very careful. Their spiritual life is so much more important than them having that job or that job getting done.
Jonathan Leeman:
You went exactly where I was trying to go.
Mark Dever:
And took less time to get there.
Should You Hire Young Christians?
Jonathan Leeman:
You sure did. Thank you. So in general, you would encourage guys not to hire?
Mark Dever:
Young Christians.
Jonathan Leeman:
Young Christians. Because the inside of a church can be a complicated place.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. There might be exceptions to that, but you say generally, generally, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any last thoughts, I think I’ve exhausted most of my questions. Any last thoughts on this topic, this crucial, riveting topic?
Mark Dever:
I don’t think so. It is an important topic. Listen, let’s assume you and I don’t really have a ton of wisdom on this.
Jonathan Leeman:
Uh-huh.
Mark Dever:
Are there other places that we would encourage the guys to turn to as pastors to find more good wisdom on this?
Jonathan Leeman:
We have a couple of 9Marks journals on a pastor and his staff back from, I want to say 2009, 10, 11. Look on the 9Marks website and scroll back and you’ll see those we had a number of people writing in on different things. And I think those were two very useful journals.
Mark Dever:
Okay, so let me say this. If you’re listening to this and you think, you know, I love Jonathan and Mark, they really haven’t taught me anything in this conversation.
You know, the situation that I’ve had has been so instructive for my soul. Maybe, brother pastor, you think about writing that up and shooting that to Jonathan in an email.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, absolutely.
Mark Dever:
And maybe we could share that more widely in some of your wisdom. And I don’t mean that sarcastically, I mean, seriously, some of your wisdom the Lord’s given you in this. could be used by other brothers as well.
Jonathan Leeman:
Info at 9Marks.org. That’s where you would send it. That’s exactly right.
Mark Dever:
And if you send it, you know what will happen?
Jonathan Leeman:
Hopefully not, but maybe. Well, it’s that special time Mark, where we…
Mark Dever:
head out to do the five o’clock meeting.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I was looking for the 9Marks mailbag music. Here we go, It’s time. That’s right. 9Marks mailbag!
Mark Dever:
You are gonna make Alberto sorry he got that new soundboard.
Does Your Baptism Depend On the Character of Your Baptizer?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, listen, I have seven of these. I think you can do them quickly. This is lightning round.
I bet you can answer each one of these in two or three sentences max. Number one, I was baptized in a Bible-believing Baptist church, but after a difficult church split, it became clear that the pastor who baptized me was not a believer, but a wolf.
In light of the episode you guys did on baptism, should I consider being re-baptized by another pastor at my current church? Thanks, Steve.
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, give me one or two sentences to help Steve out.
Mark Dever:
Gospel was preached, and you were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It’s not dependent on the character of the baptizer.
Can Someone Who Is Excommunicated Attend Church Gatherings?
Jonathan Leeman:
Footnote, see Donatus controversy. Yeah, see Augustine. If you want to learn more about that.
Number two, may a person who has been excommunicated by your congregation attend your church gatherings? Thanks, Jordan.
Mark Dever:
Normally, yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
Not normally when?
Mark Dever:
Oh, if the person is excommunicated because of threats of violence to other people or there’s somebody that they’re a court order against in the congregation. They’re unusual circumstances, but 99% of the time there’s no place we’d rather them be than in attendance.
I think sometimes people mistake excommunication meaning shunning and there I would just say, well, listen, if you’ve excommunicated a guy, do you then encourage his wife who’s a member of your church also not to have meals with him? Do you think that’s what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 5?
I don’t think that’s what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 5. Yeah. I think Paul is saying you don’t treat them like a Christian, but you still treat them as your husband.
Jonathan Leeman:
Don’t give them the Lord’s Supper.
Mark Dever:
That’s very true. Yeah. Right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Number three, what…
Mark Dever:
Jonathan Leeman has a good little book, a red book called Church Discipline that you could read on this.
Should a Congregations Be Made Aware of Moral Failings of Pastors?
Jonathan Leeman:
There it is. What biblical obligations does an elder team have to disclose the moral failings, in this case, marital infidelity of an executive pastor to a congregation?
Now, the pastor is a high-ranking member of the elder team of a megachurch that does not practice membership or congregational rule. What scripture advice do you have about how to deal with this kind of issue?
Thanks. Please make this anonymous. Thank you and God bless.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate the qualifications the person gave to try to stop us from going to the obvious answer.
Jonathan Leeman:
Matthew 18?
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
1 Corinthians 5?
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
Let me think. I’m out. I’m trapped. First Timothy 5. “Let an elder who rules well be considered worthy of biblical honor. Those who don’t, give it to me.
Mark Dever:
Number 18… do not admit a charge… sorry the print… the number are a little to small for my eyes… do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.” So 5:20, 1 Timothy 5:20 seems to suggest…
Jonathan Leeman:
Pretty Clear.
Mark Dever:
Yeah
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t care what polity you have, marital infidelity you need… number 4 here’s an interesting one. In a few weeks, I’ll be filling the pulpit for a church that’s been without a pastor since early last fall.
In that time, they have not addressed the Lord’s Supper, or celebrated, sorry, the Lord’s Supper. Given that the Lord’s Supper is a family meal to be received with the assembled church family, is it appropriate for me to serve the Lord’s Supper in a church of which I’m not a member? Thanks, Justin.
Mark Dever:
Justin, I would just encourage you to ask their elders to see if there’s anything you could do to help them administer the Lord’s Supper.
What To Do When a Consensus Can Not Be Reached Among Elders
Jonathan Leeman:
Good. Number five, what do we need to do when our elders disagree over a particular issue? I’m not referring to a major decision that must require consensus.
How do we present a decision to the whole church when we might be divided? Can you just speak to elder board disagreements and navigate some of the difficulties connected with that? Thanks, Skylar.
Mark Dever:
This is mere prudence. It’s no more than that. But I think normally it’s wisest just to simply present one piece of direction from the elders on a matter, not like… Well, 17 of us thought this, 3 of us thought this, and 3 others each had their own ideas.
I just think it’s better if you just go, we’re advising this. And the people who are not in the majority just trust the Lord’s work through the majority. I have this experience regularly.
Jonathan Leeman:
And practice submitting to the majority.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. It’s very healthy spiritually.
Jonathan Leeman:
How do you structure your elders’ retreat? What’s the main thing you hope to accomplish? Thanks, Andy.
Mark Dever:
Fellowship.
Jonathan Leeman:
Structure it how you will.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Prayer in a Worship Gathering
Jonathan Leeman:
Last question. Could you all expound on what prayer looks like in a typical worship gathering? Purpose or focus of each prayer, please. Thanks, Matt.
Mark Dever:
If you look at the chapter on prayer in the new fourth edition of Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, I do exactly that.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re not gonna tell them.
Mark Dever:
I’ve said enough.
Jonathan Leeman:
Go find the book. Friends, thank you. If you have more questions… We keep hitting that same button. If you have more questions, send them to mailbag@9Marks.org. Brother, thanks for your time.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
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