Episode 115: On the Regulative Principle
Have you heard of the regulative principle? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss the regulative principle and how to implement it in your church. They dive into church history and what created the need for the regulative principle. Explore the four ways that churches organize worship, how the regulative principle has shaped the way they worship in church and why it is beneficial for church members and pastors alike.
- What is the Regulative Principle?
- Church History on the Regulative Principle
- The Four Ways We Can Organize Worship
- How the Regulative Principle Has Changed Church Services
- Benefits for Both Pastors and Church Members
Show Notes
Regulative Like Jazz — Jonathan Leeman
Must All Regulative Principle Churches Look the Same? — Trip Lee
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman
I’m Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever
I’m Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more at 9marks.—
Mark Dever
Org.
Jonathan Leeman
—Org. That’s right. Mark, today I want to talk to you about why you shouldn’t play video clips during your sermon.
Mark Dever
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, really, I want to talk about the regulative principle.
Mark Dever
Okay.
What is The Regulative Principle?
Jonathan Leeman
What is the regulative principle?
Mark Dever
It’s very interesting. In the Old Testament, the prophets seem to make a big deal, like Isaiah seems to make a big deal out of the fact that the real God speaks. The idols are dumb.
They literally, they’re mute. They don’t speak. And that’s an evidence of the fact that he really exists. He’s a real personal being, sentient, he thinks.
And he’s made us in his image to be able to understand so he can communicate with us and we can have a relationship. How we approach this God is not something you and I have to figure out.
He has actually told us how we, as those made in his image, yet who sinned against him, can safely approach him. And the fact that he has told us that is what the regulative principle means.
The Regulative Principle in Church Gathering
Jonathan Leeman
And can you define it now in the context of a local church and its gathering?
Mark Dever
The Bible tells us what we’re supposed to do in church.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. So do the things the Bible tells us to do, but can we also do those things the Bible says nothing about?
Mark Dever
Well, we can disagree on that. So sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on how clearly implied they are in order to fulfill things that we see are clearly commanded.
Jonathan Leeman
Right. So as I understand the regulative principle, it’s that everything we do in our Sunday’s order service and when we gather together, needs to have scriptural warrant. And that warrant, and I’m going to borrow from Ligon Duncan, his book, Give Praise to God. He says “that warrant can come in the form of explicit directives, implicit requirements, the general principles of Scripture, positive commands, examples, and things derived from good and necessary consequence.”
Mark Dever
Yeah. And that’s great news. Sometimes people who fear say, oh, does this mean I can’t have drums? No, no, no, no, no. It’s not saying that.
It’s saying you are freed from the whims of man. You can do what God has commanded you. You can know how God has told you.
I love it when Connie lets me know she wants or doesn’t want me to take her out tonight. She wants or doesn’t want flowers. It’s great because I want to love her.
I desire that. So when she lets me know what is a love language that will work for her right now, I’m happy about that. All right?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, right.
How to Approach the Lord
Mark Dever
With the Lord…
Jonathan Leeman
People don’t view it as freedom, but I appreciate the way you’re putting it.
Mark Dever
But it’s true, brother.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, go on.
Mark Dever
With the Lord, because He’s real, and He’s not, as C .S. Lewis says about Aslan, He’s not tame.
Jonathan Leeman
Mr. Beaver said.
Mark Dever
Yeah. Our sins have made Him particularly dangerous to us. It’s really important that we know how to approach Him.
And therefore, the idea that Sunday service is just whatever the preacher, whoever picks the music, just thinks up, oh, let’s try this because it’d be fun. That’s just not a good way to teach each other how to approach God in public worship.
Jonathan Leeman
The Lord God Almighty.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman
The Bible never speaks to him that casually, about him that casually.
Mark Dever
That’s right. And honestly, the fact that you and I just sound absurd to some people listening to this right now is just part of the larger problem that evangelicals in America have stopped looking to the Bible to find out about the church.
So it’s no surprise that when we talk about, particularly like in the church service, the public worship, they’re not going to be looking to the Bible because they don’t assume the Bible has anything to say.
Church History That Brought About The Regulative Principle
Jonathan Leeman
I want to look to the Bible in a second. Let’s first look to church history. I want you to put your historian’s hat on.
When did this idea of the regulative principle show up? Who started talking this way? What were they reacting to?
The Reformers that Brought about the Regulative Principle
Mark Dever
Yeah, I don’t know the phrase, but it is the very first generation of the Reformers. And it’s particularly trying to understand what to do with the traditions that the Church of Rome, particularly in Western Europe, had been teaching. And if we don’t find them taught by scripture or—
Jonathan Leeman
So incense or elements of the mass or what?
Mark Dever
Yes, or if they’re contradicted, well, purgatory, if there are indulgences, if they’re contradicted by something taught in scripture, then that immediately affects what we should do.
So if I understand that scripture is authoritative, then I understand that I am to do what it says. And if I see the church around me doing something different, that shouldn’t dissuade me from doing what scripture says.
Jonathan Leeman
The 1561 Belgic Confession says, “we reject all human inventions and all laws which man would introduce into the worship of God, thereby to bind and compel the conscience in any manner, whatever. Therefore we admit only that which tends to nourish and preserve concord and unity and to keep all men in obedience to God.” So we reject anything that would bind and compel the conscience in any manner whatsoever that’s not in the Bible.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
You like that definition or that description. It doesn’t use the phrase…
Mark Dever
Yeah, that’s the slightly more narrow one. That’s the Reformed way to look at it. The Lutheran was slightly broader.
The Lutherans That Brought About the Regulative Principle
Jonathan Leeman
What’s the Lutheran?
Mark Dever
Well, the Lutheran sometimes we call the normative principle, but it really, when it begins, it’s very similar to the Reformed. The point again is looking to scripture as the authority. But it is true that in Lutheranism, it seems like the doubt was given, the benefit of the doubt was given to the new practice.
And if it weren’t forbidden explicitly or implicitly, it could be an implicit forbidding, but if it weren’t forbidden in scripture, then you could go ahead and do it. Whereas the, the, the, and it’s, it’s very similar to the reformed regulative principle because you can reason in both directions to get to the same thing, but the reformed were just at one turn tighter and they wanted it positively enjoined.
Jonathan Leeman
That would be you? The one-click tighter?
Mark Dever
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s looking at Scripture with the due deference we should give it.
Jonathan Leeman
Mark, the regulative principle is not in the Bible. What’s your response? Like, why are you being so…
Mark Dever
Yeah, I think it is in the Bible. That’s why I started our conversation.
Where is the Regulative Principle in the Bible?
Jonathan Leeman
Give me some texts. What are you thinking of?
Mark Dever
In Isaiah, when the gods are said to be mute and the true God speaks. When Jesus tells the woman at the well that those who come to God should come and worship in spirit and in truth. Every time Paul to the Corinthians gives an instruction about what should or should not be done as is done in all the churches, or what should be done is what’s good for the building up of others.
Jonathan Leeman
Nadab and Abihu is commonplace?
Mark Dever
Yeah, for the larger principle of don’t do things that are forbidden. Yeah, I’m trying to think of New Testament church. Jesus is commanding to do baptism, to do the supper in memory of him until he returns. Yeah, we can reconstruct lots of particulars like that.
The Four Ways We Can Organize Worship
Lig had a fun way of summarizing the difference at the time of the Reformation and then sort of modern liberal Protestantism when he says Lutheran, we can organize our worship in four ways. One, Lutheran, which is what is not forbidden is allowed.
That’s what I was kind of talking about earlier. Second, Roman Catholic, what is not forbidden or commanded may be commanded by the church. Three, modernist or liberal, what is forbidden may be commanded.
And four, regulative, what is not warranted either directly or indirectly by scripture is forbidden. I think that’s a good, safe, mildly humorous way to put it.
Jonathan Leeman
I feel as people ask me, well, can we do this? Can we do skits? Can we do drama?
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
No, there’s no proof text for the regulative principle as such. Everything must have a spiritual warrant that you do when you gather together, however you want to phrase it. There’s a conservative in me though that feels safest simply to stand there.
Like, I know I’m safe doing what the Bible says to do and requiring other people who are required to gather together with the people of God, you’re required to come to church, and I feel safest as a pastor only requiring them to do what the Bible requires. Maybe I’m wrong, but…
Mark Dever
No, I agree with you, brother, entirely. And that’s why I’d say, listen, I’m not denying a skit can be very edifying and certainly much lower level entertaining, but edifying, I’ll even give you edifying. But because someone might have a conscience against it, they might see all acting as lying.
There’s just all kinds of things that are there. Christians can do that in their freedom. The 17 Christians out of these 40 who want to have skits can go over on Thursday evenings and have skits and edify each other all they want through skits and use them evangelistically, but don’t put them in the middle of the Sunday morning required time for Christians to be together when you really need to keep it fairly spare than to what God requires of His people.
Jonathan Leeman
We have an article on 9Marks’ website called, Regulative Like Jazz. You like that?
Mark Dever
I do like that. Who wrote that? You? Well done.
Jonathan Leeman
And this author says, “The normative principle sounds like it leaves churches freer and the nonconformist in me likes that. But ironically, the regulative principle leaves the Christian freer, which the Bible conformist in me definitely likes.” Only require me to do what the Bible requires me to do and leave me free then in my life to…
Mark Dever
Yeah. And if we believe scripture is sufficient, it makes sense.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, that’s right. And again, Belgic Confession, all laws which would introduce into the worship, thereby to bind and compel the conscience.
And I think this is probably harder for us to see today because it’s like if we have lots of churches in a town, you go to one church, hey, they don’t, they’re not, they’re doing stuff I don’t like, I can just go to another church. But I think if you kind of stop and think for a moment, okay, what if this is the only church in this town?
Like here we are in Saudi Arabia or here we are in first-century Corinth. There’s just, there’s the one church. Well, whatever I have to do at that church, I’m being bound to do. So please only make me do what the Bible says you can make me do.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
Ways the Regulative Principle Has Changed Church Services
Jonathan Leeman
Are there any things that you did in the early days of CHBC that the regulative principle has encouraged you to stop doing? Like you kind of did it as a pastoral concession, but you didn’t like it.
Mark Dever
Yeah. When we would have a time of parent dedication for the birth of a new child, it looked a lot like infant baptism, but with no water. And we continued to think those people needed to be baptized, so we certainly weren’t understanding it as baptism.
Scripture nowhere requires us to do that form. Certainly, parents should be dedicated to serving the Lord and loving the children and children themselves.
Jonathan Leeman
Your church covenant has the church as it were, sort of dedicate themselves. So it wasn’t wrong. I’m not sure it was wrong, but I think the fact that it was so much treated as a thing like a baptism of the Lord’s supper that we did, I think we were probably obscuring the fact that scripture really doesn’t have that.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
In that sense, having a wedding service, um, as the public, public gathering for the week, the regular public gathering. Well, yeah, that’s not required in Scripture. That form is just not there.
So I’m happy to have wedding services. I think they’re useful. They’re edifying. They arrange things well for us publicly, but I’m not going to set aside the preaching of God’s word normally, the reading of scripture, the baptism in the Lord’s Supper, the actions of the church as a whole specifically for a form that is more narrow in its purpose.
Should You Use the Regulative Principle in Weddings?
Jonathan Leeman
If I could push on you just in that example, that makes me mindful. I have heard you introduce weddings on Saturday saying, welcome to Capitol—
Mark Dever
This gathering.
Jonathan Leeman
—this gathering of the church. And I’m like, well, A, it’s not a gathering of the church. B, if it were a gathering of the church, would you, according to the regulative principle, be allowed to perform a wedding?
Mark Dever
Yeah. Well, what I’ve meant in that, and maybe my language is not careful enough in that, what I’ve meant in that is that this is understood to be provided by this congregation.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
And it’s meant as a ministry of this congregation. So a portion of the congregation anyway is gathering now. It’s not just families and friends even initially, sorry, only. It’s also including just people who come because they’re members of this church.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Now there’s going to be lots of things—
Mark Dever
And a funeral would be similar.
The Regulative Principle in Non-Biblical Matters
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. That’s true. There are going to be lots of things you do that aren’t in the Bible. Help us understand that. Welcome and announcements, not in the Bible. Musical instruments, not in the Bible. So are you keeping the principle or not?
Mark Dever
That depends. I think welcome and announcements are much more like renting the Hall of Tyrannus. Okay. It’s just a matter of…
Jonathan Leeman
Circumstance.
Mark Dever
Yeah, convenience of where we can meet and I can tell you our meeting is going to be at this time and things like that. The musical instrument, maybe it’s a little bit different because they’re in, it’s interesting that the commands we have to use musical instruments are in the Old Testament.
They’re not in the New Testament. And everybody from John Calvin to John Knox to C .H. Spurgeon to Rosaria Butterfield—
Jonathan Leeman
No instruments.
Mark Dever
—would understand that since they’re not commanded in the New Testament, whereas they were in the Old, it was part of Jewish worship that is not part of Christian worship. And while—
Jonathan Leeman
There’s a little bit of you that’s sympathetic with that, true or false.
Mark Dever
Yeah. That’s true, but I mean, obviously not the majority of me because we have piano and guitar.
So you and I, you’re the son of a music minister, I think you and I both just have the typical evangelical assumption that we’ve heard this our whole lives, how bad can it be? And yet I am, I have to admit, a little intimidated by the line of people who would tell us, no, you need more explicit command for this.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, Terry Johnson and his little book on the regulative worship, which you had me read way back in the nineties, even, makes a distinction between elements, forms, and circumstances. And I think that’s useful.
Mark Dever
They’re very useful.
Jonathan Leeman
So circumstances, that’s the first thing you mentioned.
Mark Dever
The announcements, the PA system, and the air conditioning.
Jonathan Leeman
Microphone.
Mark Dever
Where you’re meeting.
Jonathan Leeman
I would put instrumentation and style of music under form.
Does the Regulative Principle Mean All Churches Look the Same?
Mark Dever
Well, that’s the question. How much is that merely a form of how you’re doing things? You know, do we pray all together aloud or does one person pray and the others listen or is it an element?
We pray or we don’t pray? So that’s the question, that musical offering, is it a whole other thing like prayer or is it part of the form of how you’re going to sing that you’re commanded to do?
Jonathan Leeman
The illustration I sometimes use when explaining this is furniture, style of furniture. So what do you have to have a kitchen? You have to have an oven, you have to have a table or refrigerator. Well, what style of oven, gas stove, electric stove, wood burning furnace?
Well, that doesn’t matter. You just got to have a stove, right? And I would say sing to one another, Psalms, hymns, that’s your element.
Now how you do that and whether or not you use instruments, I think that’s part of the form. But that brings us to the next question, Mark, which is, I don’t think the regulative principle means all churches look the same, but sometimes people think they mean—
Mark Dever
Clearly, it doesn’t.
Jonathan Leeman
—it all looks the same. So how do we respond to that?
Mark Dever
In the same way that the first people who would have talked about a regulative principle would have done so in Latin and French and German and Italian and English and Polish and Czech and Hungarian. So even as they use those various languages, they were acknowledging the different circumstances that they’re in in which to be faithful.
And those different circumstances are going to mean the sermons are going to sound a little bit different and there are going to be different assumptions people have when they walk in about what you do at a public meeting. Is my hat on? Is my hat off?
And then we just keep multiplying examples. So, you know, if you start dancing while we’re singing at CHBC, that can be okay. It will definitely be unusual.
On the other hand, some churches I’ve been in in Kenya, if I’m not moving, maybe we don’t call it dancing, but if I’m not moving rhythmically with everybody else, we’re dancing, I look a little funny.
I’m drawing attention to myself. I’m distracting from the worship of God because everybody moves in unison when they’re singing. So..
Jonathan Leeman
A long time ago when I was interim pastor at First Baptist Grand Cayman, which was a church filled with Caymanians and Jamaicans and people from all over the world, I was the stiff white guy down front. You know what I mean? And everybody around me was, was moving.
Mark Dever
They were moving. Yeah. And so that moving, I, uh, I don’t think that’s an element. If you were to make it an element, if you were to require it, then I think you’re making an element.
And that’s where I would say, well, that’s wrong. If you say it’s a form, I think it could be a form. It could be part, part of singing. It could also merely be a circumstance. It could simply be in some cultures. This is, you wear a glove when you shake hands or you don’t.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, you know what I think could be an element is when churches have a performative kind of ballet liturgical dance. So, you know, the high school girl comes down and dances in front for all of us to watch to some song. That to me feels more element.
Mark Dever
Well, yeah, you’re being forced to stop everything you’re doing and simply look there.
Jonathan Leeman
Another article on our website, this one from Trip Lee, Must All Regulative Principal Churches Look the Same? Listen to this just wonderful little description.
He says, “After a short drive through the African countryside, our truck pulled up to a chapel for a church service in Choma, Zambia. I was excited to worship with the brothers and sisters from across the world and I was anxious to see what it would be like.
How different would the service be from what I’m used to? Would I be able to worship along with them? As the service began, men on stage started to play bongos and the whole room danced where they stood.
Joyful shouts of praise broke out around me and the rhythm progressed. Then I heard the most beautiful congregational singing I’ve ever experienced to this day. The voices rang out in near perfect unison and the sweet words directed my eyes to the cross.
After seeing them, someone led us in prayer and we heard the word of God preached. It was a worshipful experience. In many ways, it was different than what I was used to, but it was also strikingly similar.”
Mark Dever
Oh, man. I remember another time in Africa when I was there in the nineties. I’m at this retreat center for this pastor’s conference with two or three hundred pastors.
And at this one point in the meeting, these 12 men, 12 tall, thin black Africans, Zulus, walk up and they stand in a semicircle and they just start to sing, only, unlike what Tripp described, they’re singing in parts and it’s completely unaccompanied and it’s in Zulu, so I don’t understand it. Somebody next to me tells it was a very simple chorus, it was just repeating things, leaned over next to me and translated for me to say the Lord, the Lord is King and the Lord is King or something like that.
And, uh, it was one of the most awesome sounds that my ears have ever heard. And I look forward to hearing something like that and or better in heaven.
Jonathan Leeman
Amen. Amen. Okay. Lightning round.
Mark Dever
That’s what this whole thing has felt like, Jonathan.
Does the Regulative Principle Allow Choirs?
Jonathan Leeman
What does the regulative principle have to say about the presence of a choir?
Mark Dever
Well, again, it’s a little bit like our conversations on conscience. If you require the choir, then I think you make it an element. Anytime you require a certain circumstance or form, you’re making that an element. And I think that’s clearly wrong.
Jonathan Leeman
But here we are, the only church in Corinth.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
And there’s a choir. I mean, they’re not thinking, well, we require this. They’re just thinking there’s a choir.
Mark Dever
Uh-huh.
Jonathan Leeman
Then, know, the, the worship planner’s sticking to the choir.
Mark Dever
Yeah, but you’ve given evidence, as evidence, something that’s different than what we have in the Bible. So I’m just not going to go with you. It’s not there.
Jonathan Leeman
So you’re not going to do it?
Mark Dever
Well, it’s just not there. So, so now we’re down to the question, could it be a form of obeying the command to sing?
Jonathan Leeman
Sing to one another.
Mark Dever
Yeah. And there I would just point out, well, it’s not a subset of us that are singing to one another. It’s everybody that’s singing. So I’m a little reluctant.
Jonathan Leeman
Sing to one another.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
Couldn’t there be another? See, I would say that’s a form insofar as they’re going to sing to us and we have an opportunity to sing back.
Mark Dever
Yeah, I think you’re stretching it a bit there, but okay, it could be. But wait, I’m telling you another way you could have a choir. You could see it merely as a circumstance.
That is, this is a commonly accepted way of singing in our culture and people are gonna think nothing of it, it’s not distracting and therefore we’re gonna do this when we meet and no one is gonna think a thing about it, everything we sing will be true. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
The fact that you have choirs in the Old Testament, is regulative principle kind of New Testament? Because you’re not gonna do other elements of temple worship, no sacrifices.
Mark Dever
Yeah. Yeah, very much so because there are going to be, uh, other parallels you’ll notice with public worship in the Old Testament that are definitely and deliberately not fulfilled in the New, notably the sacrifices and the food laws that we have.
Jonathan Leeman
You mean not repeated in the New, they are fulfilled in Christ.
Mark Dever
That’s right. I’m sorry. That’s right. And so I don’t think we want to just turn flatly to the Old Testament public worship.
Jonathan Leeman
Temple worship is not church worship.
Mark Dever
That’s right. It’s not a pattern. So don’t quote the symbols and dancing, you know, and say, therefore they did, therefore that we do it. Well, maybe in some 1980s movie, but not in the Bible.
Jonathan Leeman
Movie clips.
Mark Dever
Speaking of, I think again, if you’re requiring it, then it’s first and then it’s no. If you say it’s a form of, yeah, it’s considered to be allowable as a form of communication, I think. Now I would say—
Jonathan Leeman
You have other reasons against it.
Mark Dever
Yeah, I would say it’s imprudent. I would say it’s not wise to do generally and maybe ever, but—
Jonathan Leeman
Right.
Mark Dever
But having said that, I’ll let you know that we’re planning to show a movie, uh, on our, in place of our Sunday evening gathering in January, we’re going to do a Dispatches from the Front world premiere of a, of a new, uh, a new video because Andy was involved in it.
Jonathan Leeman
When is this, can I come?
Mark Dever
Yeah, sure. It’s one of the, one of the Sundays in January. I think it’s the last one in January. Um, and you know, we’ll sing and we’ll pray.
We’ll, we’ll do some of the other, um, things that we normally do on Sunday night, but I don’t feel we’re violating anything. Now, would I do that on Sunday morning? No, I probably wouldn’t do that on Sunday morning.
Jonathan Leeman
PowerPoint.
Mark Dever
Again, that’s just a…
Jonathan Leeman
Circumstance.
Mark Dever
Yeah, circumstance. Again, I may think it’s more or less prudent, but it’s circumstance.
Jonathan Leeman
Video preaching.
Mark Dever
I think there you’re not in merely a circumstance and it’s not a form. I think you may be in number one, I think you may be an element and it may be by implication forbidden.
Jonathan Leeman
Electric guitars.
Mark Dever
Oh, that’s, you’re number three. That’s a circumstance.
Jonathan Leeman
Altar calls.
Mark Dever
Well, again, are you requiring them? If you’re requiring them, you’re bumping it up to number one and it’s not. If you’re not requiring them, if you just decide, hey, this is a good way to encourage people to respond to the sermon, it’s probably allowable as a circumstance or form. But then it’s a question, is it prudent? And I’m going to argue it’s almost always imprudent.
The Regulative Principle Helps Pastors and Christians
Jonathan Leeman
Last two questions. How does a strong belief in the regulative principle A, help pastors, B, protect Christians?
Mark Dever
Well, A, it helps pastors by telling you where to go to find out what you do when you gather in church on Sunday, it’s going to the Bible, it’s sufficiency of scripture.
Jonathan Leeman
Back to your point with Connie.
Mark Dever
That’s right. If Connie tells me this is her love language, this is how she wants to be approached.
Jonathan Leeman
And if you love Connie.
Mark Dever
That’s awesome for me. And so if the Lord’s done that in the Word, that’s great for us.
Ways the Regulative Principle Protects Christians
Jonathan Leeman
And then B, how does it protect Christians?
Mark Dever
Well, therefore, Christians are not just subjected to the whims of whoever plans their services. It seems a lot of churches today are basically not much more than concerts. Turn the lights down, have a loud concert, and then have somebody talk for 30 minutes or 10 minutes.
Jonathan Leeman
I heard somebody say, a Coldplay concert and a Ted Talk.
Mark Dever
Yeah, and that’s a pretty thin gruel compared to historic Christian worship.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Thanks for your time, brother.
Mark Dever
Thank you.
Subscribe to Pastors Talk
Pastors Talk
A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
Subscribe and Listen to on: