Episode 117: On the Connection Between Baptism & Church Membership
When should someone be baptized? Is it wise for baptism to occur when its disconnected from church membership? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman help listeners understand how baptism is connected to church membership. They lean on the resources created by Bobby Jameison that argue it should be exceedingly rare to baptize someone apart from local church membership.
- Baptism and Church Membership Belong Together
- Rare Exceptions for Frontier Missions
- Non-Church Baptisms are “True but Irregular”
- Baptism is a Christ-Commanded Public Witness
More Resources:
- Understanding Baptism, by Bobby Jamieson
- Going Public: Why Baptism Is Required for Church Membership, by Bobby Jamieson
- “Youth and Church Membership—Or, Stop Baptizing Children into the Ether,” by Alex Duke
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
I am Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
He really, really is.
Jonathan Leeman:
Every time I wonder, am I going to get all the way through my intro or not? And no, not today, because I’m here with Mark Dever who likes to play, and that’s what we do at Nine Marks Pastors Talk, which
Mark Dever:
Nobody’s going to listen to this anymore. They’re all listening to Preachers Talk. Now, the new audio podcast, we’ve started with Simeon Trust. How exciting.
Jonathan Leeman:
So it’s you, me, Alberto, and Caleb sitting here talking to ourselves,
Mark Dever:
And Caleb has a Krispy Kreme hat on.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, he does. This is getting better and better.
Mark Dever:
Here’s that thing. John Lee brought these by, and I haven’t eaten, eaten one of them.
Jonathan Leeman:
You can learn more about Nine Marks and what we do at 9marks.org. Mark, we’re going to talk about something that you and I care about, but I don’t know how many other people care about.
Baptism and Church Membership Belong Together
Mark Dever:
Oh, does that barbecue place?
Jonathan Leeman:
No. Which I don’t know that one. No, I’m thinking about the connection between membership and baptism.
Mark Dever:
I think you want Bobby Jamison.
Jonathan Leeman:
I tried. He said he is doing marital counseling. He’s off being a pastor or something.
Mark Dever:
Okay, well, the good thing about me is that I always have time to do these interviews.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right.
Mark Dever:
He goes, Bobby’s doing premarital counseling.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. Okay, so lemme start with a story. A pastor friend of mine who might even be listening to this and who I love, I’ll just say that even though I’m about to say I disagree with him, he was telling me about this older man in the church.
They’d been evangelizing forever and they were all excited and they finally, after years, this 68-year-old man, he came to faith and he was just sharing that with me and they got to baptize him and he was so excited and I was like, oh, that’s wonderful. I was celebrating with him. And then he said kind of in an offhanded way, at some point, hopefully we’ll bring him into membership too.
At that point, it was like the screeching record needle falling off the record for me. And wait a second, what? So you baptized him and didn’t bring him into church membership. Does he live in your town? Yeah. Will he be attending your church? Yeah. I don’t understand. What did you do that for? What would you say to this brother Mark?
Mark Dever:
I think I would have a similar response to yours, though maybe not as dramatic.
Jonathan Leeman:
Always call him Cool. And collected you.
Mark Dever:
Well, I think I would want to know, I might be able to imagine more situations in which I would be not surprised at that than you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
But I like you would assume that the brother, if he is our brother, would be a part of a church. And why would I,
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re talking about the 68-year-old man.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. Why would I want to give him that public seal of being in the body of Christ if he has not committed to a particular body? I mean, that would seem to be a little unfinished business that I would like to wrap up in that whole thing.
Whether or not he officially comes into membership before, after, or at the point of his baptism, however, that’s done a week before at the point, a week later. I would like that to be kind of in the process. And because in the way we take in members anyway, I assume a lot of churches, that’s where we’re doing the same kind of investigation we would do to see if someone does have a credible profession of faith.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right now, I don’t think there’s a proof text out there that says you must bring into membership all those whom you’re baptized. But I think of a text like Acts 2 37 where they say, what must we do to be saved? And verse 38, he says, repent and be baptized. And then down in verse 41, it says,
Mark Dever:
The Lord added,
Jonathan Leeman:
The Lord added to their number 3000 that day. To what number to the church, to those who were recognized as the church? Are there the texts that you think of that one or other ones on this issue?
Mark Dever:
I mean, honestly, not a lot. It’s a more logical inference. I do think Paul speaks very similarly to that when he’s giving his testimony to Agrippa recounting his conversion, he recounts how he was called and what the Lord called him to do. Acts 26, I’m just looking forward in here.
17, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles to him. I’m sending you to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.
It’s interesting when Paul is recounting what the risen Christ said to him, the commission he was given was not only one of reconciliation to God for the Gentiles, but specifically he mentioned a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. Now, you could say that’s just a matter of speech. His point was they were sanctified by faith in me.
But it is interesting that he expressed it horizontally, a place among those who are so that gentile fellowshipping with Jews who believe in Christ the local church. So that’s one that immediately comes to mind from that Acts 2 usage as well. So sorry, that’s Acts 26 18.
Jonathan Leeman:
So if you’re going to be baptized into the body of Christ universally that needs to show up, that needs to be recognized, you need to be baptized into the body of Christ locally.
The Relationship Between the Lord’s Supper and the Local Church
Mark Dever:
Right. So you would say that the relationship of baptism to the local church is similar, if not identical to the relationship of the Lord’s Supper to the local church?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. No, absolutely. Right. Well, I would say and tell me who’d agree with it,
Mark Dever:
But because the Lord’s supper is a continuing obligation and privilege on the part of the Christian and doesn’t just occur once, it can happen in multiple locations in multiple churches. If I move from one church to another, or perhaps even if I’m visiting, if you believe in visiting communion, occasional communion. If I’m in Nashville visiting my family and I were to go to a Bible gospel preaching church there and they were having the Lord’s Supper, you would say, it could be fine for me to take the Lord’s supper there.
Jonathan Leeman:
Correct.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. In that sense, it’s a little different. Baptism is a little different. It only happens once.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, one’s an initiating oath sign, he use Bobby language, Bobby Jameson’s language initiating new covenant oath sign versus ongoing new covenant oath sign. And I would say seal like you used that word earlier.
Mark Dever:
What about sacrament as Benjamin Keach called it?
Jonathan Leeman:
What? Acts eight.
Mark Dever:
The Ethiopian eunuch. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Not baptized into local church membership.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I am so thankful for God’s sovereign work in that man’s life. I am thankful for his salvation. I’m delighted by this biblical testimony that God used a nonelderly, as it appears to Philip. Yeah. To share the gospel with him. It does seem to be a highly unusual event.
I can’t think of another one exactly like it. I mean, Lydia is saved in Acts 16, but that’s in the city. She lives in Flipping Jailer also. Well, Paul’s, again, that’s unique as a call to be an apostle. And he’s traveling away from home at the time, like the CT of in Munich, I guess. But there is no local church for him to be baptized into unless Philip wanted to direct him to go to
Jonathan Leeman:
Back to Jerusalem.
Mark Dever:
Exactly. And he was headed home. I assumed to Ethiopia and therefore there’s no church there to baptize him. So I think we certainly are learning from that, that it is not of the essence of baptism, that it must only be done in a local church by a local church.
Jonathan Leeman:
The word I usually use is ordinarily,
Mark Dever:
Ordinarily, ordinarily, or normally
Jonathan Leeman:
Into a local church. I think with a missionary religion moving outward in time and space,
Mark Dever:
There will be events like that.
Jonathan Leeman:
You just have to have exceptions.
Mark Dever:
You’ve got to start somewhere.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. But the normal practice I think is Acts 2, not Acts eight, acts eight’s the exception. Acts two is what’s normal.
Mark Dever:
So very practically, I can think of two people who we’ve evangelized at this church. This is over the years. One person who we and they were both about to move one, we agreed to baptize the other. We refused to baptize actually to her great consternation.
Jonathan Leeman:
You thought she was a Christian?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, yeah. She was literally just about to move that week and she was moving to a place with a lot of other Christians, Jamaica, and we were convinced that she could find a church there next Sunday or the Sunday after and identify publicly with Christ there where she would be living in her plans for years.
The other brother, Kenichi was moving back to Japan where he’d come from, but not from a Christian family and knew of no Christian churches in his area. And he had done research and could not find any.
So therefore we were concerned that that was a little bit more like the Acts eight situation. So we baptized Kenichi and headed back into a place where he did not know of any churches, though we thought there may be some, but
Jonathan Leeman:
Do I recall that he was moving back also to care for an ailing parent?
Mark Dever:
I do not recall. I dunno.
Jonathan Leeman:
And it’s like, yeah, that’s a good thing to do. You should go.
Mark Dever:
Well, I mean, he was an undergrad and he was going to go home. That was just, yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
I may be confused.
Mark Dever:
He was here, I think maybe for a semester abroad, I can’t remember. But she was just moving and imminently. And so we just felt like we’re delighted at your conversion. Please represent that to a church where you’re going to be living and be baptized there.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you will make Acts eight, like exceptions,
Mark Dever:
But there are so few in a 25 ministry, this is the only one I’m thinking of. There may be some others, but there are not many.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. So I think the connection that I see between these two things is they’re both doing the same thing. They’re both doing other things, but they’re both affirming people as Christians.
They’re saying to planet Earth, Christian here. So we’re baptized into the name of a father, son, and spirit so that we can then gather in the name or two or three are gathered in my name, I’m there, they represent me.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you want to keep this affirmation together, the affirmation of baptism, the affirmation of membership. Whereas if you take away membership, it’s almost like having somebody walk through a door into nothing, into not a room, into, it’s just a doorframe.
So that’s where I came back to with my friend that I began with. It’s like, okay, so you have this person, you’ve affirmed as a believer, but what if they start living as a non-Christian? Now who’s going to keep them accountable?
Who’s going to continue to affirm or discipline them? So why is the question of discipline and accountability here crucial to why we would keep them together?
Mark Dever:
If I can back up one level, I mean even among Baptists, there has been debate over the centuries, is baptism an ordinance of the local church or the universal church? And you’re assuming it’s an ordinance of the local church and the pushback from, I can’t remember people like is it, William W. Johnson? Certainly, there are historic Baptist authors who have argued the opposite.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s the ordinance of the universal
Rare Exceptions for Frontier Missions
Mark Dever:
And therefore evangelists should go out and they should baptize on the frontier in the 19th century. I think what you’re saying is at least normally Prudential, I’m happy with that kind of language.
If we’re screwing it down to ontology, then I get less comfortable. When you’re saying they’re baptized into the local church, I would think, ah, they’re baptized most fundamentally as a recognition of their membership in the universal church, that they’re born again, that they’re members of the family of God. And normally the local church very soon affirms that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Can I disagree with WB Johnson? Of course. Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Well, brother, I don’t think I’m really agreeing with him because I think he wants to very much separate it from the local church, and I’m not at all willing to do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. See, I understand the universal church would be a heavenly reality, heavenly and eschatological reality. It exists in heaven even now. Right? Where is that on earth? I understand that to be in local churches.
Now, I understand a lot of my more connectional higher church brothers would disagree with that. They, for instance, would want to say the keys of the kingdom belong to the church, capital C.
And I would want to say as a congregationalist, no, actually I think it belongs to churches because each earthly one is an embodiment, an expression of that heavenly reality. So yeah, I am going to say, I think ordinarily you are going to baptize people into membership in church.
Mark Dever:
It’s the fact that you say ordinarily and that you feel, you have to say that there’s that wiggle room that lets us see that there is, these circles are not 100% overlapping. There is some reality that the person is baptized into other than membership in that local church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Again, I’m going to keep that on a frontier setting where a local church doesn’t exist. So yes, I’m always going to claim the universal church comes first. It’s a property of our conversion.
Mark Dever:
What about the example of the two examples I just gave here
Jonathan Leeman:
Of Kenchi and then the woman who moved to Jamaica?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I would say in the one case with the woman moving to Jamaica, you have informally affirmed her as a believer. You looked at her, you talked to her, and you think, well, I think you’re a believer, but you decided not to use baptism, this initiating oath sign of the new covenant because you want that formal work to be done by a church.
Whereas with the other, with Kenchi, you decided, okay, we as a local church, not we as the universal church, we as a local church, an expression of the universal church are going to undertake that particular activity for this individual who’s going to a place where so far as we know, there is no local church. So at no point is the quote universal church, stepping in and doing something. All you have are churches and members of churches, I think on Earth so.
Is Evidence of Christianity Crucial for Baptism?
Mark Dever:
If we get rid of the universal church language and talk about the kingdom of God, would you say that you only baptize those who give evidence of being citizens of the kingdom of God?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes. And I think ordinarily it’s embassies, outposts, expressions of the kingdom of God.
Mark Dever:
And you say ordinarily because those circles are not 100% overlapping.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, I agree with that brother. But it’s going to be members of churches as missionaries who go out and do that in those frontier settings.
Mark Dever:
Like Kenchi.
Jonathan Leeman:
Like Kenchi, yeah. No, that’s right. No. Or like the Ethiopian Munich. There I am on the mission field. There is no church. It’s just you and me wherever.
Mark Dever:
So what if I get converted at a summer camp and they’re doing baptisms there, and I don’t want to get baptized because I have an uncle who’s a pastor in Iowa, and we’re going to go see him next summer, and I want him to baptize me when I’m out there.
Jonathan Leeman:
Who would do it at either? I’d encourage that student at summer camp not to do it at summer camp, not to do it with the pastor out on vacation in Iowa. I’d encourage that student,
Mark Dever:
But he’s my uncle and he’s loved me. He’s prayed for me for years. He’s witnessed to me, pastor,
Jonathan Leeman:
Praise the Lord. We are not participants of the old covenant, which is passed on through family, or participants of the new covenant, which is passed on through grace and being born again. So find
Mark Dever:
A local church. I don’t wait and do it with my uncle, though, that’s going to really upset members of my family. Then let’s say at the summer camp,
Jonathan Leeman:
I’ll tell you, I’m stepping on family does right now,
Mark Dever:
But at the summer camp, everybody else is doing it. And I really want to, on Friday they have these special T-shirts you get, and I’m serious. And Bob is the one who’s leading my Bible study and I really want Bob to baptize me. I’m just telling you, this is the kind of thing we get in churches. So let’s say maybe Chevrolet’s above all this, but ch HBC gets people like this.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, for sure.
Mark Dever:
So let’s say that
Jonathan Leeman:
This is, oh, I’m sorry. Are you asking me, is it a real baptism if they do it? Are you asking me if should I get baptized at some? I honestly should question. No, you should not.
Mark Dever:
Well, but I think that’s where I was converted, and they’re doing baptisms.
Jonathan Leeman:
Praise the Lord. The Lord Jesus has given the authority to recognize who is and who is not a believer to local churches and gave it to apostles. Perhaps Matthew 16 gave it to local churches. Matthew 18 didn’t give it to summer camp, didn’t give it to pastors.
As I understand scripture. So I’m going to say unless you’re on the mission field, Ethiopian eunuch unless you’re there, I think you should do it in a local church.
Should People be Voted on Prior to Being Baptized?
Mark Dever:
So you dislike the way CHBC baptizes people before the congregation votes on them?
Jonathan Leeman:
If I’m going to try to make an excuse for you guys, I’m just going to sort of scramble the timetables and say, oh, it’s kind of all happening effectually together, and it’s just a logistical consideration.
Mark Dever:
But did you make sure they’re voted on first at Chevrolet before they’re baptized?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes. I’m pretty sure. I forget what our constitution says, but yes,
Mark Dever:
This is so important. And you don’t even know you’ve done this at your own church.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think we fixed that.
Mark Dever:
Fixed?
Jonathan Leeman:
That bug in your system.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You would discourage the kid from getting baptized at the camp?
Mark Dever:
I would.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Okay. But now that kid has shown up in your church. He was baptized at the camp.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Non-Church Baptisms are “True but Irregular”
Jonathan Leeman:
Is it a real baptism, a Christian camp, or a bunch of believers? He’s been living as a Christian ever since then. It was done, he’s 18.
Mark Dever:
If you say he’s been living as a Christian since then and it was done in connection with the preaching of the gospel and the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I think we would take it as a true but irregular baptism,
Jonathan Leeman:
I would say the same. No, I think that’s right. Okay. Listen, unless you don’t make me sound like a crazy Baptist mark, our Baptists are the only ones who connect membership and baptism.
Mark Dever:
No, the Eastern Orthodox do that. The Roman Catholics do that. Lutherans do that. The Church of England and the Anglican tradition do that. Presbyterians historically do that. And the reformed Methodists do that.
Congregationalists do that. And Baptists historically have done that. Yeah. Who has not? No one that I can think of in the first century or the second century. No one that I can think of in the third century or the fourth century.
Jonathan Leeman:
Here we go.
Mark Dever:
I can’t think of anyone in the fifth or the sixth or the seventh centuries or the eighth or the ninth or the 10th. Maybe some 11th, maybe some heretical groups. Now, I don’t think of the 11th century or the 12th. I don’t think in the 13th or the 14th.
I don’t think in the 15th century. 16th century. I mean the Anaba would be another group that would connect them. 17th century. Not that I can think of eight. I mean Quakers, but then they didn’t do physical baptisms. 19th century. I don’t think the Wesleyans disconnected them. 20th century
Jonathan Leeman:
Salvation Army,
Mark Dever:
19th century. No, but see, they’re like the Quakers. They just don’t do them.
Jonathan Leeman:
They don’t baptize.
Mark Dever:
They think it’s just of the spirit. It’s done. So now we’re in the 20th century, and now you have in the 20th century, in the second half of the 20th century in California, the Calvary Chapels, I think they disconnect them in the sense of not having formal church membership. And there may be groups before that in the history of the church. I’m nowhere. I’d love you to write in and let us know.
Jonathan Leeman:
And certainly, it’s unusual
Mark Dever:
If there were, yeah, I’m not aware of them. Before the second half of the 20th century California.
Jonathan Leeman:
So with my friend who baptized this older man but didn’t bring him into membership, what was that? Was it advisable, foolish, sinful, illegitimate, and complete, what word would you use?
Mark Dever:
Remind me of the circumstances again,
Jonathan Leeman:
You just didn’t think to put ’em together. I mean, the guy was coming to the church, he just felt like membership was a little bit more of an imposition. Didn’t want to put that imposition, just thought that as kind of a further stage of discipleship.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I would say that it is unwise. I think I would leave it at that imprudent.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Not sin.
Mark Dever:
Oh, no, no, no. Not sin. Would you say it was a sin?
Jonathan Leeman:
I think I’d probably default to unwise as well. Confusing, misleading.
Mark Dever:
What’s making you pause and think it could be a sin is that it does seem that somebody has grabbed the keys that weren’t given to them and has exercised them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, no, the church is doing it. In this case, the church was doing it. The baptism that is, it’s just that they weren’t bringing ’em into a place where he would be held accountable and under the discipline of the church in a way that would be good for that man’s discipleship.
Mark Dever:
So at least when the church is doing it, the church has no opportunity to say no.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, in terms of No, that’s true. That’s a good point.
Mark Dever:
What is your whole point about being a better church than CHBC? I mean more obedient to God
Jonathan Leeman:
In some ways.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. But that in particular,
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I mean unless you’re suggesting CHBC is maximally obedient in every way fashion, and form.
Mark Dever:
Only that I can tell.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Yeah, no. So I’d say at least unwise. It’s possible there’s sin there. I’d have to think further and harder about to identify it.
Mark Dever:
Is Bobby’s book going public helpful for this?
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh yeah. Well, see. Honestly, Mark, it was Bobby’s book going public. I’d already written a book on membership and discipline, and I confess
Mark Dever:
You were a little irritated. Now Bobby was doing this thing,
Church Ordinances are Signs of Church Membership
Jonathan Leeman:
Not at all. But what he did was he was focusing on the ordinances in ways that I hadn’t in that first book. And he enabled me to better see, and understand the connection of the ordinances to everything I’d been doing in membership and discipline such that here’s, I always want to say it like this.
Membership is the thing. The ordinances are the signs of the things. You got to keep ’em together ordinarily got to keep ’em together. You want all three of those things together. Membership, baptism, the supper, the thing, and the signs of the things such that even the signs of the things kind of constitute the thing. It’s through baptism and the supper.
We make members, we establish citizens, we make the church a church in a sense, just through those things. And Bobby’s the one who really helped me understand that more clearly.
Mark Dever:
And he has a book called Going Public, which is very useful. And then BNH also published two short books, both of which you edited in that series. What is that series called? Church Basics. Church Basics. He has done one on the Lord’s Suffer
Jonathan Leeman:
Understanding, baptism, understanding the Lord’s Supper.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. Both of which are short and really usable with your deacons or elders or small group leaders.
Jonathan Leeman:
To the point where after reading his books, I almost want to say if you’re thinking about membership apart from the ordinances or practicing the ordinances apart from membership, you’re almost turning the membership into something that’s not biblical.
You’re turning it into something that’s kind of programmatic. Hey, we got our little package thing here going on. We’d really like you to sign up. Well, no, it’s in scripture. It’s enacted through the ordinances.
Mark Dever:
So were you baptized again when you joined the Baptist Church after being a member at CHBC?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I wasn’t.
Mark Dever:
But isn’t it a local church ordinance?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, it is. I think it transfers.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
It doesn’t have to. I mean you might decide I wasn’t.
Mark Dever:
You might decide no. No, but let’s say
Jonathan Leeman:
Like if somebody was baptized in a Roman Catholic church,
Mark Dever:
Yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
I think you would say, yeah, that doesn’t transfer.
Mark Dever:
Well, I think you would say that’s no baptism.
Jonathan Leeman:
I would say it’s no baptism. And I think you would agree with me.
Mark Dever:
I would agree with you.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you would not recognize that baptism, it doesn’t transfer, nonetheless.
Mark Dever:
Right. It’s not only a matter, it’s a Trinitarian baptism. And I would say if it’s of an adult, it needs to be in connection with the preaching of the gospel.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, exactly. That’s right. Whereas I would recognize your church as a true church capital, hill Baptist is a true church. It preaches the gospel and it baptizes people into the name of the Trinity in that regard. Only because I also believe in the Catholic church. I think it should be recognized from one church to another.
Mark Dever:
And so you do not view the Catholic church as a true church, correct? The Roman Catholic Church, correct?
Jonathan Leeman:
Not to say I don’t think there might be Christians, there might be Christians in it, but correct
Mark Dever:
I would assume there are many Christians in it. And you would assume that in Capitol Hill Baptist Church you have a true church that’s somewhat regular. I mean, compared to your church,
Jonathan Leeman:
Can we go with 97%?
Mark Dever:
I don’t know. 90. The Lord alone knows
Jonathan Leeman:
Indeed
Mark Dever:
All I can just say the older you are, the harder it is to be regular. But that’s another topic. Move ahead.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh my goodness.
Mark Dever:
Move ahead.
Jonathan Leeman:
Off the rules.
Mark Dever:
Move Ahead.
Baptism is a Christ-Commanded Public Witness
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, let’s bring this home. Why does any of this matter? Is this just you and me? Polity, wonks crossing our Ecclesiological T’s and dotting our i’s. Why is this important?
Mark Dever:
It’s hugely important because it was Jesus in the Great Commission who commanded us to baptize, and he commanded his followers to do that. And if you look at how they did that in the Book of Acts, it was in connection with planting churches. That’s what happens when the gospel gets established in a place they are baptized.
When Paul writes in Romans six to the church in Rome where he had never been, he could assume that all of those who’d been born again in Christ had been baptized. Why could he assume that? Because that’s what the Lord Jesus had taught. And that’s what the apostles were practicing.
And the indifference, particularly among evangelical Christians to the ordinances is not a good thing to say that because we believe in justification. By faith alone, nothing else that matters is not true. Jesus told us specifically to baptize. And one of the reasons, or one of the ways that baptism then functions is it gives a literal spatial physicality to the affirmation of the initiation of our new birth.
And that is an important aspect of witness to ourselves, to the Lord, to the angelic hosts, the unseen witnesses, and also to the earthly assembly that’s there. Even if it’s typically like the Ethiopian Munich is giving that witness to the Ethiopian church to follow.
Mark Dever:
It is a good and right thing to be done, and it is a Christian thing to be done, and to say, I’m a follower of Jesus. When you have the opportunity to be baptized and you’re not baptized begins to raise questions about what you mean by following Jesus.
And we in the local churches need to be teaching this clearly not that baptism in and of itself saves. It’s not the washing of dirt from the skin that saves. It’s the appeal of the clean conscious word of God that we have because of faith in Christ. So baptism is the sign symbol and seal of that spiritual reality.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen.
Mark Dever:
And Jesus gave it, we don’t have the right to edit Jesus.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. Amen. Good word. Let’s close on that. Okay. Do you have anything else you want to say?
Mark Dever:
Nope, that’s fine.
Jonathan Leeman:
You seem a little put off.
Mark Dever:
No, not at all. I was just kind of going there
Jonathan Leeman:
And it’s really, and another thing, and Jesus said, so thanks for your time, brother.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
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A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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