Episode 61: On Shepherding during Disagreements
How can pastors shepherd their members well when they disagree with each other? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss how to shepherd a congregation during disagreements. They discuss how to posture your own heart when elders or members disagree with you and how to help elders through disagreements. They talk about the importance of understanding the other side’s point of view and building a bridge of agreement. In this conversation, they also flesh out if pastors should avoid conflict and when it is necessary to stand their ground.
- How to Shepherd Your Own Heart
- Should Pastors Avoid Conflict?
- How to Help Elders When They Disagree
- Empathy and Understanding as a Pastor
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman
Hi, I’m Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever
Yeah, you are.
Jonathan Leeman
And I’m sitting here with…
Mark Dever
Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman
Is this going to be like participatory Mark or is this like distracted doing it with his mark?
Mark Dever
You know, some viewers think I sound caffeinated and they want a calmer Mark.
Jonathan Leeman
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. S apostrophe. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches.
Mark Dever
Practical Reese’s pieces?
Jonathan Leeman
I could use some of those. Learn more at 9marks.org. One of the harder things in these conversations, Mark, is getting you to talk about things that you do really well, but you kind of do them intuitively. I’ve heard sports commentators say.
Mark Dever
Why don’t you sit around and talk to me about it for half an hour?
Jonathan Leeman
I think I might. At least one of those things. It’s sort of like when you’re asking the great golfer, hey, how do you do that swing? And then I just swing it. It’s intuitive. But we’re going to try here. OK, you ready?
Mark Dever
I don’t know if this is going to go well.
Jonathan Leeman
Let’s find out. I want to think about it.
Mark Dever
It’s going to clearly be undressed sense for the pastor.
Jonathan Leeman
Shepherding through disagreement.
Mark Dever
So you’re thinking this is pretty much about our relationship.
How to Shepherd Your Own Heart
Jonathan Leeman
How do you shepherd your own heart? And you can use any illustrations you want, my brother.
Mark Dever
All right.
Jonathan Leeman
How do you shepherd your fellow elders? How do you shepherd members? How do you shepherd those out, your friends outside the churches? They’re disagreeing on social Mark Deveria or whatever the case is.
That’s kind of what I want to think through because this is a part of a pastor’s job, right? Shepherding people through their own and others’ disagreements. You disagree with your fellow elders from time to time,
Mark Dever
From time to time. That’s the best way to put it.
Jonathan Leeman
How do you, what do you, what do you do in your heart? How do you shepherd yourself in those moments?
Mark Dever
I’m sure it depends tons on what the nature of the disagreement is. So there can be things about some issues that I don’t have strong feelings about. I clearly have clear enough thoughts that I’ll say something, but I don’t have strong feelings.
Other times it would be like I can, there’s one discipline case. I always think of this where I was, it was an eight to eight to seven vote and I was with the seven and I was pretty confident…
Jonathan Leeman
That the eight were wrong.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
I think I was in the eighth in that vote. If it’s the one I’m thinking of.
Mark Dever
Yeah, I think it was, I bet it isn’t when you’re thinking about it. And I think the eight pretty quickly proved to be right.
Jonathan Leeman
With subsequent history.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman
In that individual.
Mark Dever
That’s right. That’s right. So that was an example of a time when at the time, I think I felt what I felt fairly strongly, but I just, you know, we, this is what we’re talking about in the discussion yesterday with the staff who were elders. I just trusted the Holy Spirit was working through the eldership.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
You know, I don’t imagine that I am the beginning and end of all wisdom. I sound like I do, but I really don’t.
Should Pastors Avoid Conflict?
Jonathan Leeman
And that’s a subtle conviction that animates your entering into disagreement. Would you say you avoid conflict?
Mark Dever
Only if I think we’re going to lose.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay, that’s very political. Seriously, you have a lot of conflict.
Mark Dever
What do you expect me to do?
Jonathan Leeman
Should a pastor be a conflict-avoider?
Mark Dever
A pastor would be wise, as Spurgeon said, to have one blind eye and one deaf ear. You just have to know when to use it.
Jonathan Leeman
I asked…
Mark Dever
The phrase I always use, I don’t want to make Mama say something stupid.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
Mark Dever
When I talk about not bringing up something that a church votes you don’t think the church will vote the right way.
Jonathan Leeman
How much time do you spend overlooking things?
Mark Dever
Jonathan, I am like doing that every day multiple times a day, Jonathan, I don’t know once a month.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah
Mark Dever
Near constantly. As soon as you said that I began to think of things that I was doing pretty well overlooking before you brought it up
Jonathan Leeman
I raised this topic with Mr. Schmucker and I said what’s Martin good at when it comes to shepherding through disagreement and he said…
Mark Dever
Ignorance?
Jonathan Leeman
And well, that’s that’s part of it. I suppose he said absorbing you absorb a lot. What does that mean?
Mark Dever
Well, I get disapproving comments, I had some today. I get them in person, I get them on the phone. I get them with green eggs, I get them with ham. I get them with snail mail, I get them in the email.
Yeah. I get them in the Twitterverse. There’s an article out there. Somebody pointed it out to me. Mark Dever hates old people in America.
Jonathan Leeman
I see. Yeah. How do you absorb? Do you just repress? Do you pray?
Mark Dever
I think Romans nine, and Romans 14, I just have a good sense that the Lord is my master, he’s the one I’m answering to. For sins, Christ offers forgiveness. I don’t imagine somebody else is gonna be in the position. Okay, I can think of one recently.
I even started to write a letter back to this person. And I realized what I was doing and I just without trying to think it through, I just made myself go to delete and I deleted my response. I just thought I must not do this. Just must move on. So it was just a matter of kind of talking to myself. Self, don’t do this.
Jonathan Leeman
I sometimes will write tweets knowing that I’m not going to tweet them.
Mark Dever
No, I’ve never done that.
Jonathan Leeman
But I just need the exercise of writing it, saying it, and then like, no, not going to do it.
Is it Important to be Able to Ignore Certain Things as a Pastor?
Mark Dever
Do you think you’re good at being able to ignore stuff that you should ignore?
Jonathan Leeman
Out there, yes. I think I need to get better at it in my home with my wife and children. I think I need to get better at it there. I assume you start there.
Mark Dever
Ummm… One must, I think.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s where we’re challenged the most, isn’t it? I think in general, there’s a balance to strike between being a peacemaker and being a truth teller for a pastor, right?
And how do you do both? I need to be a truth-teller. I need to say what’s right and keep these sheep from being led astray.
Mark Dever
And being a no-good lazy bum who’s just serving himself and trying to wrongly avoid conflict.
How to Help Elders When They Disagree
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Yeah. And I think striking that balance is really tough. How do you help fellow elders when you see them disagreeing?
Mark Dever
Well, if the disagreement has a root and I think any personal antagonism, which would be rare, I would probably speak to individuals about that directly. I love it when Blake Boylston tries to walk into the room quietly like a cat.
Jonathan Leeman
He ain’t no cat. No.
Mark Dever
So I think that would be rare. What is a specific topic definitely encourage them to talk to each other about it. Yeah. Other thoughts you have on it?
Jonathan Leeman
Well, I’m thinking of two occasions where, one occasion where you stood in front of the church with an elder and you guys explained, and again, I asked him if I could share this story.
Mark Dever
And he was not in favor of doing that, but he agreed to do that, which is typically kind of him.
Jonathan Leeman
Tell us how it went. Tell us what you did.
Mark Dever
Well, there was another elder and he and I just weren’t talking to each other for a year.
Jonathan Leeman
And you saw, well, hold on. You seriously let a division persist for a year. It was probably more like a year and a half, but yeah. How’d you take the Lord’s Supper?
Mark Dever
We weren’t slandering each other. I didn’t have a lack of charity. I was trying to give him space.
Jonathan Leeman
Uh-huh. But there was just an unsettledness between you and him. Yeah. And then what happened?
Mark Dever
I told him I thought it’d be good if we would just talk to the church about this so they’d understand what’s going on so they could pray for us. I didn’t have an end game. I wasn’t trying to get him to do or not do.
Jonathan Leeman
How did that go?
Mark Dever
It went really well. Yeah, it was an encouraging time. And I think people appreciate the transparency. And I know people prayed, which is the most encouraging thing about it. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
I heard one other person tell the story. You remember Chris Bruce saying he showed up. That was the first Sunday he was here. And he thought, Whoa, what is this church? And that level of transparency and decided to join the church after that occasion. So…
Mark Dever
Praise God.
Jonathan Leeman
Good fruit from that. I’m thinking of another instance where an elder got up and shared, and he got up with one of his colleagues and said, we at work, non a member, non-elder, and an elder said, we’re having trouble at work.
Do you recall that occasion? No. Again, I think it was a great example. The congregation prayed over it, prayed through it.
Mark Dever
To me, it seems like asking the congregation to pray about things is a way to infrequently used tool. Because I think we often think wrongly, too politically, and we want to try to game things out like, you know, pool, like balls on a pool table. You know, what’s this going to hit?
What’s that going to hit? What that’s going to do? And while some of that’s appropriate for leadership, we just need to be more humble and realize God is sovereign and he’s a good God. In a church family, there’s lots of charity, even when there are disagreements over things.
And we should assume the best. And we should be willing to take things to the Lord honestly, openly, and publicly, because He gets glory from that. He will answer. And He will show Himself to be mighty and good and provident. And He’ll be glorified by that.
Being Understanding and Hopeful During Disagreements
Jonathan Leeman
Amen. I think of 1 Corinthians 13, love always hopes, right? There’s a sense in which love gives the benefit of the doubt. I think your love for your church is a huge part of this and how you do that.
Matt also said you do a good job of trying to get into the other person’s head and understand things from their point of view, not that you’ll disagree. Do you want to talk about that for a second?
Mark Dever
I don’t know about the good job, but I certainly think that I would like to understand what somebody else is thinking and why they’re thinking it. So Connie and I were talking about something this morning and there was some advice she was seeking about another friend’s situation.
And she was going for a certain conclusion, which I think was the correct conclusion. But I thought that there was an interMark Deveriate step that would be really useful and good exactly because I would think from their perspective, this is how things would appear. And when I said that, she thought, no, that makes sense. That’s helpful. Thank you.
Empathy and Understanding as a Pastor
So I think, like after the most recent presidential election, and our congregation was splintering in three or four different ways, what I decided to have my introduction on in my sermon, preaching from the Psalms, was basically on empathy. Because I think empathy is a kind of understanding.
We’re trying to understand why a rational person, a charitable person, a member of the church, or a Christian person, would think differently than I would in this particular situation. Well, so how can I run the decision tree backward to where we’re standing the same line?
And then when I know I go that way and he goes that way, then I want to run back to right before there and think, OK, what does he see that makes him step like this? Whereas when I’m seeing it, I step like this. What’s going on right there? And then is there a way I can turn that, if I’m going to talk to him, into a question to try to help?
Jonathan Leeman
I feel like you often use questions in elder meetings rather than direct statements, or direct assertions.
Mark Dever
Well, particularly as a senior pastor, if I use direct statements, it’s going to bear too much weight. And that’s not going to be useful to us as a whole body thinking. Whereas a question will elucidate, it’ll illuminate. Somebody, one or two or three guys will answer it and the other guys will hear them answer it.
And that will lead to us all thinking a little bit more together. I remember years ago now when I had Dave Coffin come out pastor of a PCA church out in Virginia, a thoughtful, thoughtful brother. And I wanted him to talk with me about infant baptism in front of the staff.
But because I wanted us to have what I hope to be a more fruitful conversation than it sometimes had about things like that, I said, listen, why don’t we take turns writing sentences on the whiteboard that we think the other one would agree with on baptism that we think are true. And let’s just do it till we run out.
So we just took turns writing sentences up on the board that we thought the other one would agree with. And it really teased out our disagreements quite nicely and made agreements very clear. And there was a ton of agreement.
Jonathan Leeman
Easier to disagree when there’s a clear bridge of agreement to stand on.
Mark Dever
That’s right. And when you know the other person is not caricaturing you, they’re not trying to win an argument, you know, rhetorically in a five-minute event. They’re really trying to understand what you’re saying and interact with it and they not only are thinking about you charitably, but they’re thinking about you accurately.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah.
The Importance of Listening During Disagreements
Mark Dever
Because I think so often when we are thinking about somebody else, even if we don’t mean to, we’re just not that accurate. Because we see what we disagree with, we see the error and so we just think, well, they’re not really understanding me, so why should I listen to them on their conclusion differing from me?
So I think if we can make progress in accurately understanding. Nicole, Roger Nicole, who I had at Gordon Conwell, always said that when you were in theological disagreements, you want to always make sure and represent your opponent’s position as well or better than they would, so that if they heard you representing their position, they would not only say, yes, that’s not a caricature, that’s accurate, they would say, wow, he’s done a really good job explaining that.
That’s your goal when it comes to talking about baptism or egalitarian and complimentarian issues or you know, whatever the issue is, Calvinism, Arminianism, inerrancy or not, you know, yeah, that’s what you want to try to do.
Jonathan Leeman
So much of the frustration and bitterness and sparks around areas of disagreement have to do, as I understand it, with broken trust. And when you’re stepping in and representing another person empathetically, accurately, and fairly, you’re helping to rebuild some of that trust.
Mark Dever
Yeah, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman
OK, they’re taking me seriously as a person. They’re hearing me and so forth. Okay, so I’m making a mentalist in my head of Okay, how do I shepherd people through disagreement? I’m thinking love, love always hopes. I’m thinking of empathy. That’s a huge part of it.
Mark Dever
Understanding.
Jonathan Leeman
Understanding, and representing people fairly
Mark Dever
Well make sure you understand them fairly and then it’s just it does no good to win a false victory that is merely impressing people like that was a zinger that was funny. That was clever and that seemed devastating. Well, you’re not forwarding the whole situation at all at that point.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, in fact, you’re breaking down trust further. Yeah. Yeah. Because the person who loses the argument knows they lost it unfairly.
Mark Dever
Yeah. I remember when there was one friend around who had a certain theological opinion I wish he didn’t have. And I had friend number two going after friend number one very directly on the point. And I instructed him very strongly and privately, don’t do that. Because when you press like that, you make him defend his point. Far better to not talk to him about that. Talk to him about stuff you agree with.
And in this particular case, I knew that his being involved with our church would simply bring to the fore those issues. And if we wouldn’t harden his resistance by constantly kind of like vaccinating him against it almost, by giving him little arguments that he could then have to argue against, we were giving time for him to consider the larger case that was being presented to him by the very life of the church.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Well, I think those of us who like to argue are too quick to assume human beings are just rational calculators.
Mark Dever
Yeah, which is so not the case.
Jonathan Leeman
And if let me just give you a rational argument, you’ll understand it when it’s all cleared up, when really so much of it is about, as I said, trust.
Mark Dever
Listen, since you’re using me as a positive example so much here, can I use you as a negative example?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, please do.
Mark Dever
I remember an intern discussion last semester when you just.
Jonathan Leeman
That’s why these conversations are so fun. Please, Mark, go ahead.
Mark Dever
Come on, when you bored out on Binoy about congregationalism, do you remember that?
Jonathan Leeman
I regretted that.
Mark Dever
So Binoy, if you’re listening to this, Binoy is a very sweet brother who graduated with Master and, you know, more elder rule, very kind brother. And he’s now pastoring in Melbourne, Australia. And we were in a conversation early on in the semester and Jonathan was with us as he so often kindly gives his time to the interns to come and talk.
We were on congregationalism. And Binoy was – And I know something about that! Binoy was holding his ground, was being polite, was not using a lot of words, just some real sincere questions. And at some point, you just got into this zone.
Jonathan Leeman
I got exasperated. I let myself –
Mark Dever
Was it an exasperation?
Jonathan Leeman
I let myself get exasperated.
Mark Dever
I don’t know that it was clear to me it was exasperation.
Jonathan Leeman
In my heart, I knew it.
Mark Dever
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman
I felt impatient.
Mark Dever
To me, it looked more like you were lost in your argument and it was really clear to you and you were just going to keep pressing it until it was clear to him. To me, it was clear, like, you know, kind of a big picture emotionally, relationally.
I don’t think Binoy is always being offended, maybe humiliated, but not offended. You know, he’s a humble brother. But I think he was certainly not being one. And I thought, you’re actually, damaging it, you’re making it now.
He’s going to have to go a longer distance to agree with congregationalism because of how you’re kind of going in on him. Now, I just say this, brother, I know I’ve done that cutting myself many times. It’s just that the example is clear in my mind.
Jonathan Leeman
I find the errors of others are always clear in our minds, right?
Mark Dever
Isn’t that true?
Jonathan Leeman
No, I distinctly remember that day because I knew I was exasperated. I knew I was impatient. I knew emotion in some ways was pushing me and I wasn’t loving him. I wasn’t being empathetic with him. So I lost my train of thought. What are we talking about?
Mark Dever
We were talking about all the important things that we’ve each learned in ministry as we disagree with people.
Jonathan Leeman
Amen.
Disagreement is Important
Mark Dever
And how important disagreement is. We do learn things.
Jonathan Leeman
One more thing I’d want to add to the list, Mark, to continue my charitable kind way of talking about you positively, since you’re my friend and, you know.
Mark Dever
And I set such a good example of that for you.
Jonathan Leeman
Exactly. It is being an advocate for freedom of conscience.
Mark Dever
That’s very important. That’s hugely important, especially if you believe in the authority of scripture.
Jonathan Leeman
Explain.
Mark Dever
Well, it’s very common for people who have conservative views of Scripture to be overzealous in their particular applications of Scripture or readings of things. Romans 14 gives us very clear examples of people who are opposed to each other, or rather who come to opposite conclusions about a particular matter, and without suggesting that both of them are right because they’re saying different things.
So one is right and one is wrong, most likely, almost certainly. They could both be wrong, but let’s say one is right, and one is wrong. There still has to be, because of our own fallenness and our own limitedness, a kind of governor on our actions with others.
So as a pastor, if I’m really going to say the Bible is true rather than my assumptions, my practices, my conclusions are true, the Bible is true, I have to realize that on some things people can believe the Bible is true and come to different conclusions, let’s say, about alcohol than I do. That would be a good example of that. So…
Jonathan Leeman
True or false, the pastor in that sense needs to be the strongest advocate of Christian freedom in the congregation.
Mark Dever
Yeah, yeah. Or else you’re going to begin to have a creeping legalism, which is like plaque on the teeth of inerrancy. You know, it just undermines the authority of the Bible because it’s letting man’s rules and man’s conclusions have equal authority to what God has revealed.
Jonathan Leeman
I’ve recently been listening to a book on Protestantism. I listen to more books these days than I actually read.
Mark Dever
Is that because of the new glasses?
Jonathan Leeman
No, just a good time to use in the car.
Mark Dever
When are you ever in the car?
Jonathan Leeman
I lost, by the way, I lost my glasses. That’s why I bought new ones. In the ocean. What about the car?
Mark Dever
Why are you ever in your car?
Jonathan Leeman
Driving to and fro as one needs to.
Mark Dever
Like where?
Jonathan Leeman
Here, for instance, your house. And as interesting as that is –
Mark Dever
You can’t just walk here?
Jonathan Leeman
As interesting as that would be to continue to talk about, something I noticed in this book of Protestantism is it really is a history of splits and arguments and divisions between this and that group and sect and so forth. And brother, right now we are experiencing some of that in our tribe over matters of social justice, over matters of prophecy, dreams, visions, over the nature of our complementarianism. I don’t want to get into any one of those things per se.
Mark Dever
I’m happy to get into all of them.
Jonathan Leeman
We’re out of time, basically. So how can you encourage pastors as they’re looking out and they’re seeing voices out there disagreeing on these different issues? How can I take to heart what you just said about Romans 14 about empathy as our friends and brothers disagree even publicly?
Empathy is No License for Indifference
Mark Dever
I think empathy is no license for indifference. It’s no blanket license for silence. Empathy simply means that I want to understand why somebody who seems to have all the same theological assumptions I do on X, Y, and Z, come to different conclusions on this particular issue.
Jonathan Leeman
Right, sure.
Mark Dever
And I want to have respect for that. And depending on what the issues are, if they’re not matters that actually define the faith, then I want to be very charitable and restrained in how I speak about that kind of difference.
Jonathan Leeman
And how should pastors, as they’re watching different voices disagree, then respond? Should they respond? And church members come up to them and say, hey, pastor, what do we do with the fact that John MacArthur says this and Thabiti says that?
Mark Dever
Yeah. Well, I think in both those examples, knowing both those men decently well, let me speak for John for a moment. I think John and the others behind that statement, see the gospel at stake.
They don’t think that’s the intention of a lot of the people who would use this language that’s concerning them, but therefore they feel compelled to speak. If nothing else, just to warn those who might otherwise unwittingly get caught up in it. I entirely understand that.
Thabiti, on the other hand, I don’t think he disagrees really with that all that much. I think the particular examples that some people would say of things to be these written are themselves distractions from the gospel.
Thabiti would just see them as specific entailments outworkings of yeah, outworkings of the gospel, though he would understand how people would disagree with him on that. So I think there’s a slightly asymmetrical. I don’t think they’re each just a mirror image of each other.
Jonathan Leeman
No, they’re not. But what I see is I don’t see you entering into that publicly and taking sides as it were. And I’m thinking, is there, I’m asking, I guess, is there an example that maybe you chose wrongly?
Mark Dever
Well, I think that’s a very thorny example. I think we’re in the middle of it. So I don’t know. I certainly am trying to assume the best on each side and then walk over to what is the, what’s the most logical construction I can put on that, knowing them as I do that allows them to be in such disagreement on X, Y, and Z.
And even if it’s not the most obvious reason why somebody takes a position, at least from the opposite person’s side, I’m going to assume the best and try to let that be the chain on my dog of conclusion that it’s only going to travel so far.
Jonathan Leeman
Right. But I see a lot of pastors out there who love to jump into these arguments on Twitter or Facebook. And I see a reserve, a reticence in you. And forget this particular one, in general. A reticence in you to do that. And I think that’s an example to be commended in general.
Mark Dever
Well, there are a lot of controversies I think we have to be involved in. And I’ll trust the one we just mentioned, Thabiti and John both feel like have to be involved in this. Well, that’s why they both have spoken. And that’s their stewardship. I will get involved in things that I think I have to be involved with for faithfulness to the gospel.
Jonathan Leeman
Any last comments on shepherding your church, shepherding yourself, shepherding your elders, shepherding your friends?
Mark Dever
Pray, believe the best. If you have basically what’s going on, a disagreement between two folks, get them to talk directly to each other generally. There can be exceptions to that sometimes, obviously.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, if you think it’s going to make it worse, knowing the individuals, you wouldn’t. So thanks for your time.
Mark Dever
Thanks, man.
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