Episode 76: On Pastoral Pay
How should churches approach pastoral salaries and who pays them? During this discussion on Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever tackle what the Bible teaches on pastors’ pay. Tune in as they establish where payment comes from and the importance of generosity as a congregation. Together, they also flesh out a pastor’s responsibility when thinking about money.
- How Do Pastors Get Paid?
- What the Bible Says About Pastoral Pay
- Should Churches Pay Their Pastors?
- Pastors and Financial Responsibility
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
On Pastoral Pay
Jonathan Leeman:
Hello, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
And this is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to equip church leaders with biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more at 9marks.org.
Mark Dever:
How do you keep coming up with these things that get released every week when you and I seem to do them more Galopally?
Jonathan Leeman:
Galopally, Define Galopally.
Mark Dever:
Not like Galopally, not the Battle of World War I, but more like a… You know, we’ll do two or three and then I don’t see you again for a couple of weeks and then we do one and then we don’t see each other for four weeks, but somehow you got one coming out every week. How do you do that?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, it’s because we bunch them up like that.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s not complicated. If you do three at one, then you won’t see me for three weeks. One plus one plus one equals, you can do the math.
Mark Dever:
Three?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yay.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, this is what I want to talk about in this one.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Paying pastors.
Mark Dever:
Okay. Should I recuse myself, normally I recuse myself from such conversations.
Jonathan Leeman:
I appreciate that when your elders are discussing how much they’re going to pay you. You step out of the room.
Mark Dever:
I’ll answer any questions, then I’m out of here.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. I think that’s useful. But we’re not talking about how much to pay pastors.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
If you have questions on that friend, see Patrick Traylor’s article, How Much Should You Pay Your Pastors on the 9Marks website. How much you should pay your pastors? We’re talking about that.
Mark Dever:
That you pay your pastors.
Jonathan Leeman:
You pay your pastors.
Do Muslim Imams Get Paid?
Mark Dever:
Jonathan, one of the reasons this first came to my mind is probably 15 years ago when I was visiting Dubai. And I wondered how all these Muslim Imams get paid.
Jonathan Leeman:
I have no idea.
Mark Dever:
And Max Seil said, well, they’re paid by the state. And the state actually sends them their message for Friday.
Jonathan Leeman:
Astonishing.
Mark Dever:
So they’re spokesmen for the state.
Jonathan Leeman:
That makes sense in a theonomy.
How Do Pastors Get Paid?
Mark Dever:
It does. And so then you think, well, okay, so how do Christian pastors get paid? And so like last night in Bible study at CHBC, do you remember that?
That’s the church that you used to go to. Anyway, we were in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, thinking about Paul.
Jonathan Leeman:
Verse 8?
Mark Dever:
Well, we were all over the place in chapter 11, but we did include verse eight. We’re in 7 to 11 was our focus.
We were thinking about how Paul did not accept pay from the Corinthians as a kind of strategy of how to best engage them with the gospel. But instead, he let the Philippians, we think, the church of Macedonia, and I assume from Philippians it would be the Philippian church, the Philippian church pay him, and support him.
Like we do missionaries when we’re sending them into a place where they don’t have or don’t know the gospel. And it struck me again, just how from the very beginning of Christianity, of obedience to the Great Commission, very much unlike those Muslim imams in Dubai, the UAE, Christianity has expanded not by the coffers of the state being captured and used to pay Christian pastors, though there have been times when that’s happened.
But most fundamentally and originally and still continuingly, mainly, it’s the local Christians themselves who set aside part of their money and pay, Galatians 6 -6 style, you know, Hebrews 13 style, pay the ones who teach them. So that they are able to give themselves, and set themselves aside to study God’s Word.
Does the Great Commission Encourage Pastoral Pay?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, you’re effectively saying the Great Commission is to some extent contingent on that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Christians doing that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. That’s been the little practical thing of how you get guys who are able to study God’s Word and teach it well in public, how you get them to have the time freed up to be able to study and prepare. And it’s been that way for 2000 years.
What the Bible Says About Pastoral Pay
Jonathan Leeman:
Before we get into the meat of this, I wanna get into the meat of it. Before we do, let’s play this Bible game here.
I’ll name a text and then you name a text and we’ll go back and forth until we run out of texts. Now a little unfair, cause I got to think about it ahead of time. That basically comes in paying your pastors.
I’ll start. Luke 10:7, Jesus is sending out 72 and he says, and remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide for the laborer deserves his wages.
Do not go from house to house. There’s Jesus commending the labor to the preachers going out. That’d be the first text. You got another text for me.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, 1 Corinthians 9:13, “Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?” So Paul is there pointing out the history of how in the Old Testament, the priests who serve at the temple actually are eating part of that sacrifice you bring.
That’s how they’re sustained. That’s how it actually works.
Jonathan Leeman:
And then verse 14, you said says, or you would say says, read 14.
Mark Dever:
In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. That’s just so clear.
Jonathan Leeman:
Bringing it into the present.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
From the Old Testament. Okay, you mentioned already, here’s my turn, Galatians 6:6, let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. Okay, your turn.
Mark Dever:
Well, I’ll give you an interesting one that I didn’t mention earlier, 2 Timothy 4:3, the assumption that the false teachers who are going to teach what the people who have itching ears want to hear are able to be accumulated by these laymen because they teach them, that they pay them rather. So I think there’s the assumption there that that’s how it functions in Christian churches, that you have the preachers paid.
Jonathan Leeman:
You mentioned also in 2 Corinthians 11:8, I robbed other churches by accepting support from them. So other churches are paying in order to serve you. I’ll give you that and I’ll give you one more.
Philippians 4:16 to 18, even in Thessalonica, you sent me help for my needs once and again, not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit. I have received full payment and more.
I am well supplied having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. Anything else?
Mark Dever:
I think the kind of respect that the writer to the Hebrews calls for the leaders be treated with Hebrews 13:7, remember your leaders, those who spoke to the word of God, consider the outcome of their way of life, imitate their faith. I think the very fact that he’s telling them to care for them like that, to respect them.
Treat them in such a way so that their work will be a joy, because for them to make their work, not a joy, in verse 17, would be of no advantage to you. I think that has some very direct implications for how you pay your pastor.
Jonathan Leeman:
1 Thessalonians 3:7 and 9, For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it. But we toil and labor, we work night and day, that we might not be a burden to you.
It was not because we do not have that right. Sorry, 2 Thessalonians 3. So he is talking about he’s doing his own work, but he does claim to have the right.
But to give you an example, to imitate. There’s one more big one neither of us have mentioned yet.
Were Jesus and the Disciples Supported During Ministry?
Mark Dever:
Well, there’s one that I want to mention from Acts 6 when the apostles are saying, listen, we’re not going to, we think the problem with the distribution of the food to the widows is significant, but we are not going to stop what we’re doing in order to look at that neglect. Instead, They say it’s not right that we should give up preaching the Word of God to serve tables.
And they weren’t in that way in any way being disrespectful toward the importance of serving tables. They just simply came up with the idea of what I think we call deacons, or Paul later will call deacons because they say in verse four, but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the Word.
And the way they’re able to do that, it’s not stated in this text, but the way they’re able to do that, we see I think from these other passages, especially like 1 Corinthians 9 and Galatians 6, is the fact that Paul is, and well, in this case rather, the apostles are being supported, even the way Jesus and the disciples were supported, we know, during his itinerant ministry.
Jonathan Leeman:
The last one I can think of, Mark, perhaps the most clear one is 1st Timothy 5:17 and 18, let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those whose labor and preaching and teaching. What does double honor, what goes on to say, for the scripture says you must not muzzle an ox when it treads at the grain, quoting Deuteronomy 25 and Old Testament ideas. And then he quotes Jesus from Luke 10, the labor deserves his wages.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. We could quote a lot more verses from 1 Corinthians 9, because Paul talks about this at length, but yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
So I’ve counted, you, and I have quoted one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. This is a pretty well-attested idea.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, and I’m sure there are others that we could, yeah.
Are People Starting to Say Pastors Should Not be Paid?
Jonathan Leeman:
Have you noticed a shift away from the assumption that pastors should be paid?
Mark Dever:
I think with the rise, thanks to Ralph Winter, of the concern for unreached people groups in the 1970s and 80s, and the willingness and desirability of thinking outside the box about how to reach them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Get it done.
Should Pastors be Bivocational?
Mark Dever:
There’s been a concern that we want to get somebody there now, even if there’s not a natural way to have a mission-sending agency plant a church there. And that led to business as missions, tent making using Paul and Acts 18:3 in Corinth said to have lived with the tent makers and made tents.
It’s led to creative, vocational kind of choices, which have sometimes been, uh, forced upon pastors when they’re planning new churches in areas, or when they’re taking on just pastoring the church on the frontier before the settled preacher could get there. It’s become more of a choice of this is one way we could do this more rapidly within certain people then beginning to advocate actually it’s best to treat exceptional situations like the norm so that we’re not put off by the exceptional situations.
So let’s just say the norm is just kind of bivocational. I do this and I do this. And that’s how the gospel is going to run faster and further.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, what triggered this conversation is one worth having in my mind you and I were at a conference and one person in that conference made the comment that their pastor wasn’t paid because that pastor received their income primarily from another situation. And you in response, well, you didn’t publicly scold them, but maybe you challenged them vigorously.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Should Churches Pay Their Pastors?
Jonathan Leeman:
So let me put the question to you straight. Should pastors be paid by their churches?
Mark Dever:
If it’s at all possible, yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
Why?
Mark Dever:
Because that locates the fulfillment of their responsibility to care for their wife and family and to be able to feed themselves without being a burden to others. It locates it squarely where we think their most important work is. which is in the understanding and preparing to teach publicly God’s word.
Jonathan Leeman:
You were animated when that person said that at that conference. Like there was, there was some heat there. Explain the heat.
Mark Dever:
Well, I think if you want to make sure that there is no Christianity, let’s say in Ohio, 60 years from now, let’s just make every pastor in Ohio, bivocational. Let’s make sure that he really has to give his time to designing, that that railroad train or that new piece of clothing or working at McDonald’s or doing whatever he has to do to make ends meet. And then he gives whatever leftover time he can have to prepare scripture studies for his people.
Will Not Paying Pastors Affect Christianity?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s a strong claim. If I don’t want Christianity in Ohio in 60 years, stop paying pastors.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Can you unpack that for us a little more?
Mark Dever:
Well, it’s hyperbolic. But my point is that the church is best fed and made healthy by men who can show faithfulness to the calling that Christ gives them by giving the 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. part of their time to studying the Bible rather than only being able to do it after dinner and part of the time during the weekend and maybe by neglecting other responsibilities that they have.
Jonathan Leeman:
And part of it is that kind of Galatians 6:6 impulse, let the one who is taught share all good things with the one who teaches. Part of the impulse there is helping the congregation understand, look, the most important thing you can have is somebody feeding the Word of God to you.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
As a congregation, the most important thing you can have.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, if you’re going to value the car you drive more than the kind of teaching you’re getting about your soul, the problem that is there is one that’s to be located in the Christians. It’s like those Christians in 2 Timothy 4:3, who are going to pay these false teachers to teach what their itching ears want to hear.
Willingness to Pay Pastors is a Sign of Christian Maturity
Jonathan Leeman:
Fair to say that a willingness to pay one’s pastors, not even a willingness, a desire to pay one’s pastors is a sign of Christian maturity.
Mark Dever:
Yes, particularly if they’ve been taught. Now, I want to be very careful. If brothers and sisters haven’t thought about this a lot, if they just think, oh, this is a little technical detail, you can think whatever you want about this really, it’s not that important, well, they have to somehow think about it first.
So you… The very fact that you and I have rehearsed these scriptures could be useful. And a lot of times pastors don’t want to talk about this because they feel it’s awkward because they feel they’re speaking about something that’s sort of in their favor.
Jonathan Leeman:
Self-interested.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. When I want to say, well, if you do that, you’re never going to teach them anything about the church.
Does God Ordain Means of Paying Pastors?
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m going to come to that in a second once you teach them. But let’s just make sure that the claim you’re making here is clear. The Great Commission in some fraction, some percentage is contingent on… God’s ordained means of paying our pastors, true or false?
Mark Dever:
True. And I think I’m saying it a little more forcefully. I’m saying the Great Commission has and is basically being fulfilled in part by local Christians setting aside part of their money to pay someone to teach them God’s Word full-time when possible.
Jonathan Leeman:
Obviously, you’re not saying all the pastors in a church.
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because you have a number of the majority of pastors in your church are unpaid. But you’re building on a 1 Timothy 5 kind of distinction, let him rule well, be considered worthy of the especially tough. Fair? Is that…
Mark Dever:
Yes and the priority you see in this passage in Acts 6 for prayer and ministry for the word
Is Bi-vocational Church Planting a Good Idea?
Jonathan Leeman:
Is bi-vocational church planting ever a good idea?
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, and I want to be clear I know brothers who are bivocational pastors and their heroic in their willingness to do that but I would just say that depending on other circumstances I would love to see them develop the congregation out of that as soon as they’re able to for their own ability then to concentrate and to study better.
Jonathan Leeman:
So one article I read on the 9Marks website, mind you, starts this way. We are experiencing a national trans-denominational revival of interest in planting new churches that are biblical, gospel-centered, healthy, growing, and reproducing.
But as we look at the landscape of church planting in North America, it is clear that we have a critical problem with our methodology. Colon. The math simply doesn’t work.
Mark Dever:
And that’s the headline of the Was that Jimmy Scroggins’ article?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, okay. I remember that.
Jonathan Leeman:
In order to teach the tens of millions of lost people living outside the Bible Belt suburbs, we need to plant thousands of healthy churches. However, the majority of church plants fail because they run out of startup money before they are financially viable.
We are writing to propose a sensible, sustainable strategy for church planting in the most unevangelized and under-churched regions of North America by vocational ministry. Do you agree with that?
Mark Dever:
Well, I have to relook at Jimmy’s whole article there.
Jonathan Leeman:
The impulse.
Mark Dever:
I love Jimmy. Yeah, I do agree with the impulse. I’m completely fine with being creative to get things started.
But I want to say the way things are sustained is not the way you start them necessarily. Now at our church, we’ve been blessed with a large enough congregation that we were able to start your church with the way hopefully it’ll be sustained. In other words, we gave you guys…
Jonathan Leeman:
65 members.
Mark Dever:
Well, you had the freedom and you used it with our encouragement to start assembling together yourselves and to stop giving us money and start giving money to a new church that you all covenanted together to create. And you’ve been giving your money not to us, but to that church in order to pay your pastor.
And you’ve been able to do it from the very beginning. And I think that’s optimal. But I think what Jimmy’s article is probably rightly pointing out is that…
Yeah, we can’t do that every place at once. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
We can name a number of guys.
Mark Dever:
Oh, that’s right. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s just not viable in their context or whatever. So as I’m looking at the New Testament
Mark Dever:
Well, I want to say sometimes in those contexts where it’s not viable, I would suggest it might be better not to have a separate church instead of people just burning themselves out.
Why don’t you let the churches that are there try to do that work until they can figure out a way to be more responsible for the sake of the pastor and family involved? Then set aside a brother full-time in order to do the work.
Jonathan Leeman:
So when I’m looking at the New Testament, I do see some measure of flexibility. Three scenarios. In scenario one, the church pays its pastor as Paul recommends in a number of texts. In scenario two, we have Paul saying he took support from other churches.
Mark Dever:
2 Corinthians 9. Or sorry, 11.
Jonathan Leeman:
And scenario three, he tells the Thessalonians that he worked so as not to be a burden.
Mark Dever:
And as he did with the Corinthians in Acts 18:3. And he did a combination. He both accepted money from the Philippians in Corinth. He worked as a temp maker in Corinth.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you’re saying, Jonathan, that’s the nature of a missionary religion where you’re starting things up. Yes, you’re going to have to go there in different contexts. Nonetheless, we’re aspiring toward…
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And I guess what I wanted to do with having this conversation with you is, I just want to push on people’s minds, so especially pastors, hey, guys, stop being so small-minded as to think this is just about your pay.
This is talking about whether the gospel goes forward with quality men giving quality time to quality study to produce quality teaching. That’s going to take resources and it’s going to take skill and those skills will often take money very practically to amass and to train and to be able to hone.
And if we’re going to be stingy as Christians on that, we are cursing our children and grandchildren and the world they’re going to inherit. We want to be generous with pastors who have the character to withstand and profit by and use appropriately our generosity, not go by Cessna’s for themselves, but who are going to in turn invest in gospel ministry and care for their families well where that is not a problem that comes to them.
Now, not every Christian around the world is going to be able to do this. I understand that. But my guess is most of our listeners are people who are listening to us in societies where they can have churches like this, and many of them are in churches like this.
And I just want to say pastors need to be understanding this is part of fulfilling the Great Commission. If you leave this out, what are you going to push us back to be like state-paid imams in the United Arab Emirates?
Or some businessman somewhere, just an individual who funds us? I mean, that can happen, but it’d be much better if Galatians 6, the people who are profiting from the teaching, would pay. And there could be lots of implications that it may mean we don’t have churches that are so small that six people are struggling so this husband and wife struggle and huge pressures put on their family of five.
There may be lots of mission implications where we love Jimmy’s heart to see a new church has started, but maybe we say, hey, we’re not going to start them as quickly as one might think reading that article. I would just reference, I assume it’s on the 9Marks website somewhere, the conference we did with NAMB in 2018 in October. Where Aaron Menikoff gave a talk, a 20-minute talk specifically on slow growth. I would just say, go listen to that or watch or read that talk.
Jonathan Leeman:
Getting practical for a second.
Mark Dever:
This whole thing is practical.
Pastors and Financial Responsibility
Jonathan Leeman:
It certainly it is, but okay, now how do we put, put feet on it? So you’re the pastor. I had, in fact, I had a conversation yesterday with a pastor on the phone.
I’d never met before and we were talking and he said, Jonathan, is it bad for me to leave my church? Why are you thinking about leaving your church? We can’t stay in the red.
My wife and I and our five children can’t stay in the red or can’t stay in the black. We’re moving into the red. I said, do you drive a BMW? He kind of laughed and no, he named a model of a car.
Mark Dever:
What about a Volvo convertible?
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t know if he drove that either. He named a model of a car, let’s just say it was older and clearly the man’s living frugally. What advice would you give to that man?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think he’s thinking responsibly to wonder, he knows the Lord’s given him the responsibility for his wife and children. There’s no one else who can take that responsibility or should.
And therefore, whether or not he takes the responsibility of someone who prepares the public teaching for the congregation, well, it would depend in part. If he doesn’t care for his family and provide for them, Paul says he’s worse than an infidel. So it’s really up to that body to see if can they do that.
And that’s where I do wonder sometimes if churches get started that cannot sustain themselves financially, would it be better for them not to be there if there are other Christian witnesses in the area until those other Christian witnesses come up with enough support that that brother can be supported full-time, either by their contributions like Paul taking it from the Philippians or because they wait until there are enough people together who want to do this work like with Chevrolet that they can support a pastor full -time.
Jonathan Leeman:
An unnamed evangelical leader who will not be named was giving a seminary lecture in which he said, churches if a man ever comes, candidates for the pastor of your church and he asks about how much he’ll be paid, don’t hire him. He’s a lover of money. What do you think? Reasonable?
Mark Dever:
Not reasonable.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Explain.
Mark Dever:
He may be a lover of money. Yeah, he may be a lover of money. So I don’t want to say that that doesn’t.
Pastors are Financially Responsible for Their Families
Jonathan Leeman:
But he needs to take care of his family.
Mark Dever:
He does. It’s responsible. What I told our pulpit search committee here back in 93. I didn’t ask him direct questions about pay after even the first couple of hours talking to him and they were surprised about that.
And I just said, you know, listen, I just figured, you know, if, if I don’t if I’m not able to take care of my family, I’m worse than an infidel, all the Scripture says, and therefore that’s, if you call me, that’s going to kind of be your responsibility.
So I just assume that as long as you can provide for my family, I’m free to stay here and teach you God’s word. And if at some point you can’t or choose not to, then that really requires me to go elsewhere.
Jonathan Leeman:
A church makes you an offer of X amount of dollars. You’re thinking to yourself, I can’t live on that. I can only live on X plus 20. Would you reply and say, I can’t live on that? I can only live on X plus 20?
Mark Dever:
I think so, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Last question.
Mark Dever:
But more than that, I would try to help them see, brothers and sisters, this isn’t about me. This is about the ministry in your city, your town, and your congregation. And… just let me speak, if I may, for all the people who would serve you.
If you’re going to call somebody my age with my wife and my number of kids, we’re going to need something more like this. So I could die right now and this is still relevant information for you.
So this is not you’re trying to meet my demands of taste or whim. This is my informing you of a responsible way for you to care for the person who would teach you God’s word.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s good.
Mark Dever:
So that’s the kind of mindset you have to have. You need to get out of the defensive, it’s all about me, and I’m trying to help mature the congregation to see the importance of a clear, sufficient, and even generous provision in order to help that man and his family freely concentrate on the main work that the Lord is calling him to do in our midst.
How Do You Teach Your Congregation About Pastoral Responsibility?
Jonathan Leeman:
Last question, brother. You mentioned earlier the reluctance of pastors to teach on this because it seems self-interested. How do you teach and how often do you teach your congregation about these matters?
Mark Dever:
Whenever it comes up in the text. So like last night in Bible study, we were in 2 Corinthians 11, so we were all over this. So when we’ve been going through 2 Corinthians and 1 Corinthians, we’ve hit patches of it.
It just depends on where we are. I haven’t felt in our congregation an overwhelming lack of understanding of this. I think Jamie Dunlop does a good job in that Healthy Church budgeting book coming up. He’ll touch on some of these matters.
Jonathan Leeman:
And regularly in members’ meetings, he’ll say something.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So I think we’re decently well taught on this, but I certainly take the opportunity to talk about it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Bottom line, pastor, be humble, ironically, be humble and teach on this.
Mark Dever:
Teach your own job description, and teach your own job requirements. That’s how they’re going to know what to do after you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Brother, good conversation. Thanks for the time.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
Resources referenced:
Jimmy Scroggins, “Is the Future of Church Planting Bi-Vocational?”
Patrick Traylor, “How Much Should You Pay Your Pastor?”
Subscribe to Pastors Talk
Pastors Talk
A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
Subscribe and Listen to on: