Episode 79: On Funerals
How should pastors handle funerals? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about what funerals represent and the joy we can find in them. They give pastors advice on how to prepare and organize a funeral and discuss how to preach at a funeral along with the importance of presenting the gospel. They wrap up the conversation with notes on a congregation’s role in funerals and how pastors can lead them to help well.
- What Do Funerals Represent?
- How Can Pastors Prepare and Organize a Funeral?
- How Should Pastors Preach at a Funeral?
- What Roles Do Congregations Play in Funerals?
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, I am Jonathan Leeman, and I’m here with the one and only man sitting across the table from me with closed lips whose name is Mark Dever. Indeed. Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk.
9Marks exist to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn more at ninemarks.org. Mark, we’re going to talk about funerals.
Mark Dever:
Have we never talked about funerals?
Jonathan Leeman:
May have mentioned it in passing, but No, I recall the illustration. How did this come up? Maybe a Shirley Luther Moore illustration you’ve used from time to time, but no, let’s concentrate on this topic. You’ve been pastoring,
Mark Dever:
So how did you get this idea if we’ve never done this?
Jonathan Leeman:
Alex emailed me this morning, with this set of questions.
Mark Dever:
How did Alex get the idea?
Jonathan Leeman:
I have to ask him. We have a whole running list of things to talk about. I assume it’s somewhere on the list.
Mark Dever:
Great.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’ve been pastoring for 30 years. How many funeral services would you say you’ve done?
Mark Dever:
Ballpark 10. I know, but the odd thing is –
Jonathan Leeman:
A hundred.
Mark Dever:
A hundred. The odd thing is I did scores in my thirties and I’ve done very few in my fifties because of our congregation. It was
Jonathan Leeman:
Explained very briefly.
Mark Dever:
It was an elderly congregation when I came at age 33 as the pastor and I did the funerals for those people
Jonathan Leeman:
Monthly,
Mark Dever:
Sometimes three a month
Jonathan Leeman:
For the first few years, and now it’s a young congregation.
Mark Dever:
Now I won’t do a funeral. In the average year.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Well, I mean maybe one a year. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
I feel like I’ve heard you say, correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve heard you say you enjoy funerals more than weddings.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah. Oh, much, much, much.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now that requires some explanation.
Mark Dever:
Well, I don’t mean I enjoy death more than marriage. I’m not saying that, but the wedding ceremony is not in the Bible and there is so much cultural pressure over how things are done and so much money is made off of specific aspects of getting married that it bothers me.
What Do Funerals Represent?
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s a production,
Mark Dever:
Commercial.
Jonathan Leeman:
Production,
Mark Dever:
And the feelings of the people involved get amped up and there are little landmines one is not aware of and tensions, and it’s just like details that profoundly don’t matter the distance they’re standing apart from each other and among the grooms, and it’s just like little details drive me crazy Anyway, so it’s just like, oh my goodness. So one of the best things about having an associate pastor, a second person on staff here was like somebody else could do the weddings over to you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. That’s the negative version of why you like them more. What’s the positive version of why you like funerals
Mark Dever:
More? Well, funerals like another one. Safe home, job done. Praise God.
Jonathan Leeman:
I remember there was a God,
Mark Dever:
And you know what? Funerals, nobody cares about most of the little details. They’re not thinking about stuff like that. They tend to think about the big picture
Jonathan Leeman:
Stuff, the right things. Yeah. I remember one guy I was discipling who was struggling in sin and seemed to perpetually struggle in sin. This is not about funerals, and I remember you giving me the advice.
I was discouraged over this particular relationship and I think you said something about Jonathan. Sometimes the best ing thing we’re doing is just kind of keeping a guy in the sheet pan until glory and the funeral represent that we’ve made it to the river,
Mark Dever:
The finish line,
Jonathan Leeman:
We see the celestial city across from this person.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
They’re waiting across now.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you remember the first funeral you did?
Mark Dever:
Yes. Goodness. It was before I was here. I came here in 94. That was in 84. My first funeral was for, is
Jonathan Leeman:
That Gordon Conwell day?
Mark Dever:
It was for an atheist who was the husband of my sister, and he died suddenly.
Jonathan Leeman:
How did you prepare for that?
Mark Dever:
Well, I thought
Jonathan Leeman:
Doing the funeral that is,
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I thought and prayed and tried to take counsel because I, at the time I’ve done that, I’ve been 23 or 24, talked to probably some older ministers who were professors at Gordon CommonWell about things you want to make sure to do at a funeral. And so I think the three things I sort of resolved on are what I kept using once I then got here and was doing them more regularly or did them in England.
I want to have a time where the person can be remembered and you just celebrate. There’ll never be another meeting with that person again. Probably. Let’s just celebrate the good things that are there.
Remember them laugh, and cry, and we tend to do that at our funerals by just letting there be an open time where anybody can say anything. And I try to do that early on. That’s where eulogies go, things like that.
And then second, I want to be very clear that the person is dead, so I don’t want to pull that punch. I don’t want to use a bunch of euphemisms. I am happy to talk about ’em being promoted to glory, but I want to be clear, especially our family members, that this person is dead.
Jonathan Leeman:
Be clear about the reality of what it is and what the
Mark Dever:
Finality of it,
Jonathan Leeman:
Because the euphemisms are
Mark Dever:
Well, euphemisms as a Christian, if we talk about somebody being promoted to glory, that’s not a euphemism in the sense that it’s false, but it’s a good way to speak of the change. When the change we know is a result of sin, death is not a happy thing, and just relationally, I think one way people try to cope with death is by ignoring it.
And I think as Christians, the reality of death is one of our stronger arguments for why what we are saying not only makes sense but is important. So a Christian is the last person in the room who needs to run from death.
Jonathan Leeman:
I remember Matt McCullough in his book, remember Death this good great book, which I recommend has this little section where he talks about how funeral directors and homes often use, they won’t refer to the, I forget the exact language, they won’t say that. Maybe
Mark Dever:
The departed
Jonathan Leeman:
The Departed or something like that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, he went out the door over there. You just missed him.
Jonathan Leeman:
Their whole language is wrapped around euphemisms.
How Can Pastors Prepare and Organize a Funeral?
Mark Dever:
The third thing I want to do, so the first thing, remember the person, second thing to be clear on the third thing, I want to be clear on the gospel,
Mark Dever:
And I remember thinking that I was going to speak to this room full of people down in Palm Beach, Florida, all of whom knew this man better than I did. I did not know him well at all.
My sister had only been married to him for a year and he was a very busy dentist, but I thought, well, what am I doing standing here? I thought, well, the only reason I’m standing here is I know someone who went in the grave and came out the other side and I need to be clear about that with these people gathered here. So those have continued to be the kind of guidelines that I’ve used for funerals.
Jonathan Leeman:
Brian Croft, pastor of Auburndale Baptist and author of Conduct, gospel-centered Funerals, a little booklet, that is helpful writes, don’t preach them into heaven, don’t preach them into hell. Just
Mark Dever:
Preach the gospel, preach them preaching the one who is departed,
Jonathan Leeman:
Preach the gospel. Those who are there, and that sounds like what you’re saying. You’re doing okay very practically. Then those are your three things. Remembrance, be clear about death, be clear on the gospel. How do you organize a funeral service?
Mark Dever:
Well, roughly in that order, just in the sense that the eulogies come first, any kind of human statements, and then as it were, the service begins where I’m going to have probably him certainly at least a prayer and definitely a word from scripture.
Eulogies in Funerals
Jonathan Leeman:
Let’s talk about that first one, but
Mark Dever:
Again, funeral services are not in the Bible, so pastors don’t need to live and die over the order as if this is mandated. This is not the Lord’s supper, this is not baptism.
Jonathan Leeman:
You open up those eulogies. As I recall, it’s been a while since I’ve been at one of your funerals, but you open up for anybody to say anything.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Is it true you say that to kind of get any distracting things out of the way up front if they’re going to happen?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You explain that.
Mark Dever:
Well, were we not in public in a sense here? I could tell some amusing stories, but
Jonathan Leeman:
Just one.
Mark Dever:
No. Well, I don’t think so. No. The ones that I, if I could think of one that was sufficiently amusing and yet tellable, I would, but sadly the ones that I could tell are
Jonathan Leeman:
Still, indict the living.
Mark Dever:
I think so, but any pastor listening to this can probably relate to that. Yeah. There are things that are going to be said at funerals, which are going to be not the kind of carefully scripted stuff you would put in a Sunday morning service.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you have both spontaneous eulogies where you say to the assembled
Mark Dever:
And the written ones
Jonathan Leeman:
And then the written ones. Both
Mark Dever:
Are, yeah, and man, sometimes those written ones are long, but again, it’s their relative’s funeral. I mean, the only time clock you’re on is when they want,
Jonathan Leeman:
Will you cut somebody off if they start being unhelpful in that context? I trust there are a lot of listeners who have had that experience or will have that experience.
Mark Dever:
Probably not, because I just make sure that my scripture, hymns, prayers, and my word from the Bible are the second thing, the last thing, the other thing, so I’ll have the last word.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’ve also found that those –
Mark Dever:
And honestly people talking as they do just makes it clear to everybody else in the room stuff about them,
Jonathan Leeman:
Who they are.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, sure. So they’re locating themselves as they speak.
Jonathan Leeman:
Those have also been a wonderful time for testimony of the church’s witness in the community.
Mark Dever:
Well, there’s certainly the Shirley. The Shirley
Jonathan Leeman:
Recount that again very briefly.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Shirley was an older woman, one of the first people I baptized here. She was effectively a single mother and grandmother raising grandsons just half a block from the church, and she was beloved in the community.
She did stand outside her front door and just talk to everybody. Went by and she declined. Our congregation was very helpful to her in taking her to doctor’s appointments and just all kinds of stuff, and when we had the funeral and the church building, lots of people from the neighborhood came, and in that open time, people just stood up and started talking about how wonderfully this church had loved Shirley, and so there was no member of our church speaking.
There probably were a hundred members of our church there and probably maybe a hundred people from the neighborhood. There was a large-ish funeral for maybe 50 and 50, I dunno, but it was not just three people for this elderly person.
There were a lot of people taking time off work to come, and it was the people in the neighborhood who were just going on and on about the church loving Shirley. Well, so it was a great testimony.
How Should Pastors Preach at a Funeral?
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. What do you try to do in the sermon itself and how long do you preach? What are you trying to accomplish? 15 minutes, 10 minutes. Excuse me. 30 minutes.
Mark Dever:
It’s going to depend a little bit on the family and the setting and what they want, but I’m going to tend to preach very short at a funeral, maybe eight minutes, maybe 12 minutes, something like that, and I tend to take a phrase from one of the epistles in the New Testament that has some reflection about the afterlife. The world’s come and use that as a kind of meditation.
Jonathan Leeman:
You write those fresh.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, everyone’s different
Jonathan Leeman:
Weddings. Going back to the sort of asymmetry here, weddings, you’re kind of using the same one. You make some adjustments.
Mark Dever:
Weddings are attraction, commitment, faithfulness, and grace.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right? That’s your outline, but for funerals, you’re writing these fresh every time.
Mark Dever:
Every single one’s different.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. I think that’s striking different, and encouraging.
Mark Dever:
It feels right to me.
Funerals For Children
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Okay. Do any of these change according to the person who died? If it’s an infant, it’s a child, it’s a Christian, how do those factors adjust and affect what you do?
Mark Dever:
Yes. Name one and we can talk about it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Infant.
Mark Dever:
I have not done a funeral for an infant.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Child.
Mark Dever:
I have not done a funeral for a child in our congregation. I’ve been here 25 years. I can think of one instance where I was close and doing the counseling immediately with the couple, but for some reason, I can’t remember why the associate pastor ended up doing that funeral.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any general thoughts on that infant child?
Mark Dever:
Again, there’s no requirement in scripture for this how we do anything, so you’re really just working with the parents to see what would be helpful and encouraging, and yeah.
How Are Funerals For Christians Distinct?
Jonathan Leeman:
What distinctions do you make between doing one for a Christian, say a member of your church versus a non-Christian?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I think the first funeral I did here was for a non-Christian. It was a guy across the street who cut the roses at the Rundel house and trimmed things up, and he had died and they were just wondering what to do and wondered if we would have a funeral for him, and they called us.
I said, we would certainly do that because I tend to, I think what Brian said there that you quoted was an echo of something that I’ve often said now, and Brian May have thought of it independently. It’s not great wisdom, but I tend to not comment on the eternal destiny of the person I’m preaching whose funeral I’m preaching,
Jonathan Leeman:
Whether Christian or non-Christian.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I mean, I want to cut on the gospel. I don’t want to kind of give a news report on how we know Grandpa’s with the Lord now
Jonathan Leeman:
Looking down on us.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I mean, he may have… Now, if it’s just an unusual case, I might, but that would be an unusual case.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you wouldn’t say, I think it’s fairly common to friends. We have confidence that he’s with the Lord now and singing with the angels more than he would be here. You hear that sort of stuff commenting.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I’m sure I have said stuff like that, but that’s going to be a very rare situation, in which I’ll say things like that. I’m going to generally just be much more like a cran service at the graveside, which is giving great words of assurance of pardon and of the resurrection hope for those who are in Christ, but we don’t speak with certainty. We speak with hope and it’s over to the Lord.
Jonathan Leeman:
We can go back and we can remember their life and the good that God has given your life. As you said, we can confirm the reality of death. We affirm the gospel,
Mark Dever:
Speak the gospel clearly. That’s the hope. That’s the, one that Lisa seemed to have. Yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
Don’t need to. I like that. We’re not trying to give a news report into things we don’t necessarily know at this moment, so in that sense, you’re not
Mark Dever:
Not trying to take comfort away from anybody, but I’m going to be careful about what I say.
Jonathan Leeman:
At the same time, the funeral for someone like Helen Young is going to be dramatically different, more joyful in a way.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Helen was age a member of our church who was an older woman and a strong, evident, strong Christian, as was her husband, and were just wonderful members, and yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And there’s going to be not a festivity, that’s not quite the right word, but a joy.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, no, you’re certainly right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Even if you don’t have to come out and say this or that.
Mark Dever:
That’s right, and it’s because all of us who knew her thought she gave great evidence of being born again.
Funerals For Death By Suicide
Jonathan Leeman:
Have you ever presided over the funeral of somebody who committed suicide?
Mark Dever:
Oh, I’m sure the answer is yes. An example is not coming to mind, but I’m sure the answer is yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any specific thoughts on that? How to do that?
Mark Dever:
As a Bible-believing Christian, I don’t understand suicide as an unforgivable sin. It’s not a matter of kind of Roman Catholic idea. It’s a mortal sin, and now I’ve left myself with no time to no ability to make true penance, to confess and make true penance, so I certainly believe that taking one’s own life is within the possibility of a regenerated person.
Excuse me. It would just be another example of a situation in which I want to be very careful about how I speak about the person, but I will most assuredly not speak to that person as if we know their eternal destiny.
Jonathan Leeman:
In so far as there’s a lot of concern, confusion, and questions about just that with a suicide case, would you feel compelled to explain what you just explained to me?
Mark Dever:
It would depend on the person, the family, the setting, and the vibe, I can imagine a situation in which I would be more theological like that and do some reasoning. Generally, when people are in grief, it’s not a great time to try to do careful theological reasoning with them.
It may be with an individual from time to time, but in the emotional service of memory and funeral, you certainly, do very important theology, hold out the gospel, but trying to put some logical boards together and nail them and see, you see it fits like this. I’m not saying that would never happen, but that’s probably not going to be a lot of funerals. I’ll try to get much lifting done.
Jonathan Leeman:
Assuming Mom and Dad are standing there with you right after it all happens and Mom is pleading with you, does this mean he is necessarily going to hell? You’re going to respond.
Mark Dever:
Oh, of course,
Jonathan Leeman:
But in terms of a preemptive word, you might be slow.
Mark Dever:
I might mean if it’s a devout family or let’s say if it’s a Roman Catholic family, so it would just depend on the setting.
Jonathan Leeman:
Let’s take it to the graveside. Do you have a set liturgy for that? You mentioned Cramer.
Mark Dever:
Yes. I literally just rip off Cramer.
Jonathan Leeman:
How long is that?
Mark Dever:
Very short. I mean, maybe 3, 4, 5 minutes now. I’ve added some stuff. I’ve added some modern stuff. I’ve added some scripture readings, but the basic form of it and the words of committal to the earth, are from the Book of Common Prayer.
Jonathan Leeman:
Is that worth making available on the Nine Marks website,
Mark Dever:
The book of Common Prayer?
Jonathan Leeman:
No. Your adjustments.
Mark Dever:
No, it’s a word doc. It’s messy. No, it’d be embarrassing. Be like, look at my sock drawer. You don’t want to do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, people are hearing your sock drawer every time you go to the grave sign.
Mark Dever:
God bless him.
Jonathan Leeman:
Here’s this sock, here’s that.
Mark Dever:
So the Lord’s kind to us.
Jonathan Leeman:
I assume a number of pastors listening to this are in churches where they have a lot of young people that feel more like our church or your church now as opposed to before, and they’re not doing this. Would you recommend those pastors make themselves available to do funerals of others in their community outside the church and so forth?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, depending on their schedule. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a great man if we can’t stand at the gravesides who can, so yeah, in so far as you have time, I don’t think you should feel obligated to do it, but I think it’s a wonderful opportunity for the gospel. The graveside is a great place to preach from.
What Roles Do Congregations Play in Funerals?
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. How would you pastor your church to help in the funerals of members? In other words, we’ve been talking about you as the pastor. Is there a role for the congregation? What is it? How do you help them with it?
Mark Dever:
Well, that’s going to be a natural extension of their kind of body life where they’ve been caring for somebody when they’ve been ill. They’ve been bringing meals, they’ve been checking on them. They’ve been caring for the family.
Are you talking, is there now a widow? So it just depends on the circumstances, but a generally loving congregation will show itself when a member of the church or a near relative of a member of the church dies.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you do anything to facilitate that showing of itself? You spoke of it as kind of a natural outgrowth, and I think that is, but is there a role for you to help facilitate that in the church as a whole? I mean, announcements, I suppose.
Mark Dever:
Possibly, yeah, if there’s going to be a public service in the area. We had a member whose sister down in North Carolina died recently. We did not make a public announcement about that. There’s no possibility for people to go there.
All of her friends know if there was something here in the city or certainly at our church. We would definitely announce that like any other service, we would invite members of the congregation to come. We would encourage them to come.
Jonathan Leeman:
Again, I appreciate your saying. If we can’t stand at the graveside and explain what this is all about, who can, I also mentioned Matt McCullough’s book, remember Death Before, I remember the George HW Bush funeral about a year ago now, not even that half a year. I went to the Wake in the Capitol and walked by, and it was striking to me that in our culture, we do all we can.
Matt talks about avoiding any thought of death whatsoever, and here a whole bunch of Christians and many, I assume non-Christian neighbors were there four-hour line to get into the capitol, to behold this casket, to stand there for 15 minutes and just stare at the casket, and then we moved on.
It was striking, and I just thought, okay, finally all of these people getting a chance to consider the reality as you talked about the reality of what this is, and we give two little thoughts to it, what a great opportunity is for us as Christians to point to something else.
Mark Dever:
Amen.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you have anything else on this, brother?
Mark Dever:
Not really.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, thank you for your time.
Mark Dever:
Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman:
All right.
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