On Authority (Pastors Talk, Ep. 244)
What does biblical authority look like? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss what biblical authority looks like in action and how to practice it. They talk about how our view of God affects our view of authority and flesh out how sin distorts authority on earth.
- What Does Biblical Authority Look Like?
- How Does Our View of God Affect Our View of Authority?
- How Sin Distorts Authority
- Biblical Authority is Part of Evangelism
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
And this is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to help pastors build healthy churches.
Mark Dever:
And help those churches get better and better.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen.
Mark Dever:
It’s what we’ve been trying to do for some years in these informal conversations. And the conversation is gonna be a little more informal than normal because I’m leading it today.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, sir.
Mark Dever:
Lord willing. Jonathan, you have, as you have so long done in your life, a long pattern of falling in a tub of butter.
Jonathan Leeman:
Tub of butter?
Mark Dever:
It’s an old country expression. What that means is you’re a man who knows good fortune. Have you heard that expression in Alberto?
Mark Dever:
He’s from the Dominican Republic.
Jonathan Leeman:
Wow, that was just kind of…
Mark Dever:
So let me just be clear.
Jonathan Leeman:
Throwing DR into the bus.
Mark Dever:
No, no, it’s just a different language. Okay, now listen, we have just gotten the pre-pub copies from Crossway of your new book, Authority: How Godly Rule Protects the Vulnerable, Strengthens Communities, and Promotes Human Flourishing. And I have to say, this is the most attractive, handsome cover of any 9Marks publication ever.
Jonathan Leeman:
Aren’t we to not judge a book by its cover?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And we’ll get to the stuff inside the cover also.
Jonathan Leeman:
What I like, they did a great job. I cross the texture, the feel.
Mark Dever:
I liked it. It’s cool. Isn’t that cool? So Crossway, kudos to you. I’m not sure what designer did this. Maybe it’s AI these days. So AI, thank you. Um, if, if a human was involved also, thank you so much.
Mark Dever:
Mark, did you notice that the picture of this growing field harkens, I think, to the verse that you have so often drawn out in conversations about authority? David’s last words.
Jonathan Leeman:
When one rules justly over men, ruling in the fear of God. Can I read it?
Mark Dever:
Sure, yes, please. Give the citation.
Jonathan Leeman:
2 Samuel 23 verses 1 and then 3–4. 1 tells us, “Now these are the last words of David”, but then 3 and 4 say, “When one rules justly over men ruling in fear of God, he dawns on them like the morning light, like the sun shining forth on a cloudless morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth”.
And so in this picture, you have an idea of growth coming up in response to of all things authority. But that’s what godly rule, according to David, according to God does, it creates life.
Mark Dever:
Can I tell you one of the odd glories of this book? I’ve not read every word. I think I’ve read most of it. I think you’ve paced the reader better in this book than in anything you’ve written.
Jonathan Leeman:
I tell a lot of stories.
Mark Dever:
Well, and the chapters are not super short, which is his own fun thing, like in Bobby’s book, The Path to Being a Pastor. But they’re not long and they’re not heavy. So I would say in some of your important work, One Assembly, Don’t Fire Your Church Members, the chapters are of uneven weight.
Jonathan Leeman:
A little denser.
Mark Dever:
Some are, and then some are light.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fair enough.
Mark Dever:
In this book, you’ve done a wonderful job pacing the chapters.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, good.
Mark Dever:
So our eldership has read through it almost entirely now. I think, dear listener, you will be pleased at how this book paces you through Jonathan’s arguments.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you, brother.
What Does Biblical Authority Look Like?
Mark Dever:
And I just want to point out that he has the book in four parts. What is authority? What is submission? How does good authority work? What are the five principles, and what does good authority look like in action?
Unless it sounds like the practical stuff only happened in the fourth part, that’s not true. He’s got sort of practical-for-you sections in either every chapter or almost every chapter.
Jonathan Leeman:
I hope so.
Mark Dever:
Which I really appreciate. I mean, they’re, they’re laid out that way. So why is this topic so important? Do you think? And timely. So give me the timeless, why is it important, and then the timely right now.
Jonathan Leeman:
Important because God created us to rule. That’s what it means to be, that’s part of what it means to be creating God’s image. And we image the ruler of all things by ruling. And so he says, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth, subdue it. Right.
And then Psalm 8 comments on that, “What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him”. Then it goes on to tell you have crowned him with glory. So the idea of authority goes right to the very heart of human existence.
So you might decide, I hate authority. Well, that’s like saying, I hate what God created us fundamentally to do. So that’s why it’s important. It’s also important because in the fall, we’ve distorted it dramatically.
And so in redemption, we need a better vision of what good authority and rule look like. Timely, I think, perhaps, because the culture wars and all the things that we are arguing about in the public square in one way or another go back to this question of authority, whether we’re talking about abuse, talking about critical theory and what it requires or doesn’t require, whether we’re talking about abortion, churches and what’s going on in church and church leadership, so many of the things that consume social media today, in some form or fashion have authority at the heart of it.
Mark Dever:
Disputes over what’s done in our school classrooms.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh.
Mark Dever:
Who makes those decisions?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s exactly right.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. In the book, you are wonderful, you’re clearly working as a pastor yourself to be clearly biblical. And we can’t go, this is a short conversation, we can’t go through the whole book, but just if I look at part three, cause that’s very, these five principles are very applicable. You say, how does good authority work?
Five Principles of Biblical Authority
You have five principles. Let me just lay them out briefly. It is not unaccountable but submits to a higher authority. It doesn’t steal life but creates it. It’s not unteachable but seeks wisdom. It’s neither permissive nor authoritarian but administers discipline.
Ah, the Aristotelian golden mean there. And it’s not self-protective but bears the cost. Let’s just pick out all of those that are super edifying. Let’s just pick out that middle one. It is not unteachable but seeks wisdom.
Jonathan Leeman:
There’s an amazing line towards the end of Luke 2 or 3, where you have Jesus growing in stature and wisdom. And it seems to be invoked at the end of Isaiah 51, I rise morning by morning like one being taught. Yeah. And so you have this picture of, of the God-man now in the incarnate God-man…
Mark Dever:
Luke 2:52.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s it. And he, opens himself in his progress of rule, the one who will be declared as having all authority in heaven on earth. Here’s this picture of him growing in wisdom. I can’t begin to get into the mysterious complexities of all of that. So just leaving that.
What I do know clearly is that if you mean to lead, if you mean to rule, you are a person who is active and seeking out the wisdom of the Father. Let’s jump to Proverbs now, right? What is the son called to do?
He’s to submit himself to the instruction of the father. And if you ever mean to rule anything, you are one who submits himself to a multitude of counselors every step of the way.
Mark Dever:
I think one of the ways you succeeded in this book is you’re very personal in it. You try to make this not just a dry book of theology or even of ethics, but you are free to talk about yourself. That was a self-conscious decision.
Jonathan Leeman:
Absolutely. Because it’s such, what I wanted to help people understand is that this is not an abstract topic. This is a deeply personal topic.
Mark Dever:
Paul wrote about himself in his letters.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. It engages what you do and is doing every day, certainly as a pastor. So far we’re speaking to pastors in this podcast, but the book all goes beyond just pastors to husbands and fathers, mothers, toll booth operators, and so forth. So we need to be engaged in it personally and understand how this indicts you and then applies to you.
Mark Dever:
I mean, here’s a perfect example, a typical example of how you write about yourself. This is page 119 of the bottom. I am teachable.
Jonathan Leeman:
That cannot be the whole sentence. I don’t think that’s the whole sentence.
Mark Dever:
Why? Are you not teachable?
Jonathan Leeman:
I aim to be. I aspire to be.
Mark Dever:
Well, you said here in print, you are.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think by God’s grace at times I am. I still don’t think that’s…
Mark Dever:
You didn’t put all that in this sentence. You just said I am teachable in theory.
Jonathan Leeman:
Ah, in theory.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I aspire to be.
Mark Dever:
That is, I’m conscious of my need to be teachable.
Jonathan Leeman:
Certainly, that’s true.
Mark Dever:
You said, too often I’m not.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s also true.
Mark Dever:
A younger man recently said to me, a way to cut me out, a younger man recently said to me, I know you’ve written on this topic, but I really think we should at least give this group of writers a hearing because they might be seeing something we aren’t.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, I remember that now. And that young man was sitting in this room a few minutes ago.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Walking in Humility as One in Authority
Jonathan Leeman:
I was frustrated when he said that. Like, who are you to say? Whatever. That was my flesh. That was my heart.
Mark Dever:
My flesh knows the same words.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I needed to then coach my heart to respond better and to say.
Mark Dever:
You say he was correcting me and my flesh didn’t like it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. It’s a daily battle in some ways, right?
Mark Dever:
I think it can be harder for pastors too because we’re told that we’re leaders and that we have leadership as a gift from God and in the trust of the congregation and therefore we should use it. And so that can make it all the more confusing when sometimes like, Oh, but they’re telling me not here.
So we’ve got to learn to distinguish between. When is this clearly constant with scripture and prudent? And when is this maybe not forbidden by scripture, but yet not prudent?
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s a constant battle to know whether or not this is a person to listen to or not to listen to. And you always aspire to listen and gain whatever. And I think I’ve learned this from you in many ways, Mark, gain what can be learned from that, even if they’re wrong on 95% of it.
I remember hearing John Piper talking in a sermon about husbands in the context of a home. You’re in a dispute with your wife. He said, even if she, I think he said, even if she is like, you’re convinced she’s 99% wrong, you lean into that 1% and claim where she’s right.
Mark Dever:
Knowing Shannon and Connie, I could promise you, she’s probably not 99% wrong.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, that’s another, I mean, on that topic, just to go off on this for a second, I think it was Joe Rigney who pointed this out to me and I use this in the book and I don’t know that I credit him as I should have. He talks about how the figure of wisdom throughout Proverbs is feminine.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. Uh, and you have those two pictures of two, two women, uh, Lady Wisdom and then Lady Folly, and chapters, what is 8 and 9. And then you get the wife of noble character and she’s one to be listened to.
So there’s this kind of sub-theme throughout Proverbs of listening to your wives. God has given them to be a helper. Listen to them. They have wisdom. And I think you and I both know that our wives have insights into various dynamics that you and I don’t naturally see.
Mark Dever:
Certainly true with my wife.
Jonathan Leeman:
Going back to the incident where the younger man corrected you said he was correcting me and my flesh didn’t like it yet. Do I stand to gain anything by discounting his counsel? I can only grow by receiving it.
I think of my friend, I’ll often recount undergraduate at Duke eating lunch and he’s beginning to correct me on something. It’s my friend, Glenn. I immediately start giving it a defense. I mean like boom, fast, solid.
And Glenn looks at me and he just says, shut up. He said, Mark, How are you ever going to learn anything? You are so fast in the way you justify yourself. What if only 20% of what I’m saying is good? How are you ever going to hear that stuff? You know, and I just, man, Glenn shut up just lives in my mind.
Jonathan Leeman:
You know, who’s a good example of this in the book? I use an illustration of the head astronaut from NASA. Member of the church, your church.
Mark Dever:
Well, who is sincerely humble and hates being pointed out as an example?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, yeah, he agreed to let me interview him for this book. And he talked about after, after the space shuttle disasters, the two of them. In the 1980s was the Challenger. And then early 2000s, Columbia, he talked about the review boards of just listening, lots of litigating that the leadership did. In times of crises, you can understand why that would happen, but how much do you want that kind of character of being a leader who listens to characterize you before the catastrophes and the disasters?
Mark Dever:
Well put, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
A good leader, a good authority figure doesn’t assume all the answers are inside of his head, even though our instincts tell us they are, our flesh tells us no, no, he’s just continually, she’s continually looking to hear from others in order to make good decisions.
Mark Dever:
In that sense, I think a good leader is probably not going to be like your first chair violinist. He’s going to be like your conductor. It’s not getting, that he’s the brightest or the best at a certain thing, though he may be, it’s going to be, he’s the one who has the view of the whole and knows how to get the best out of everybody and cause it to work together.
In one sense, he’s the least important guy there. He doesn’t play any of the instruments. He makes none of the music. But in another sense, he is the one who is putting them all together into the whole, which is a whole different thing than even the violin part.
It’s very challenging, difficult, and beautiful that the violinist plays masterfully. That by itself is so different than what the conductor is trying to produce.
Jonathan Leeman:
But the vision you just offered right there is, I think, different than what our flesh continually tells us. Our flesh continually tells us that we’re at the top. It’s our voice that matters. And what you just described was a person devoted to eliciting the voices and strengths of others, that first violins, the trombonist, and the timpani player, and so forth. It’s a different view. And it’s a beautiful view though.
Mark Dever:
So are you going to take credit for that illustration? Mr. Hand, Mr. Nose. Anyway, one of the things that can I continue to praise you just for a moment?
Jonathan Leeman:
We can talk about the book.
Mark Dever:
That’s what we’re doing. So not only do I appreciate the fact that you’re as practical as you are throughout it, but you being yourself, are very theological. So even in the authorial way, you’ll do the like dips from one chapter into the next. There’s always a little, but now it’s a little more, that comes out at the end.
You do it very theologically, yet the battle for humility and a posture that listens is rooted in an even deeper question. Whose glory are we seeking? Which will take us into the next chapter. I appreciate that.
How Does Our View of God Affect Our View of Authority?
Jonathan Leeman:
I was sitting at a meeting and Don Carson made the point that a person’s view of God is central to their view of authority. And I’m sure I’ve heard you say similar types of things, but for some reason, it just kind of clicked with me when he said that.
And to go back to those final words of David, notice how he begins, when one rules in the fear of God. In other words, the most important thing about you when it comes to how you exercise your authority is how you regard God. You rule in the fear of God or the fear of man, it’s one or the other.
And also then what is your view of God? Is your God big, strong, sovereign, gracious, loving? Your use of authority is going to approximate that. If your view of God is small, pathetic, weak, angry, bitter, or whatever, then your view of authority is going to approximate that in some form or fashion.
So one of the first questions we have to ask ourselves when we come to this topic is who do I conceive of God to be? And if we had the self-insight to do so, we could probably trace lines between that and how then we treat our employees, children, and so forth.
How Sin Distorts Authority
Mark Dever:
If all of this is so practical and basic and part of, it seems like almost every aspect of the Christian life, why have people today become so angsty about this whole topic of authority?
Jonathan Leeman:
Because in addition to authority and creation and redemption, which are good, we also have authority as it’s often used in the fall, which is bad, right? In some sense, what is authority? Well, it’s the misuse of the agency that God has given us.
It is a sin, right? And we both know that sin is rampant and we both know that authority is dramatically abused and misused. And so people are right, I think, to be angsty and suspicious. The Enlightenment tradition, for its part, is right to be suspicious of the king’s authority, the church’s authority, the, you know, the scientist’s authority.
And, you know, the entire Enlightenment tradition is one long march of critiquing different forms of authority in our lives. And in certain respects, that’s right. And as Christians, we need to keep an eye on that. Always keep one eye, and pastors keep one eye on the fact that the authority, your own authority, as well as the authority of your fellow elders and all the people in the congregation is going to be abused apart from the grace of God.
Mark Dever:
One eye is Romans 13, one eye is Revelation 13.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. One eye is Pharaoh at the time of Joseph, and the other eye is Pharaoh at the time of Moses. So authority is well used and wonderful, but it’s also abused and terrible. And as Christian pastors, we have to always keep our eyes on both.
Mark Dever:
So somebody is listening to this or begins reading the book or just hears of the book. Should they assume that by authority, you always are implying a kind of hierarchy, whether it’s in the family or in the state?
Jonathan Leeman:
I think a hierarchy is one element of it in so far as to have authority is to be authorized to make decisions. To exercise power in…
Mark Dever:
Are parents and the state authorized in the same way?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, and I talk at length at how different God-authorized institutions like parent, pastor, prince, you know, the state, have different authorities, have a different texture, they should feel different, they have different authorizations, different jurisdictions, and we need to pay close attention to how God authorizes each. And there’s a sense in which too often we blur those lines and treat them as the same.
So, you know, the father refers to himself as the king of his own little kingdom there in the home, and that’s a problem. Right? Or the pastor who I heard about who referred to himself as a king from a missionary friend. And that’s a problem. He’s going to start acting in ways and using his authority in ways that God has not authorized.
Mark Dever:
Page 150, you say the office of a parent makes sense in light of the undeveloped but maturing nature of a child. The office of government makes sense in light of the need for social coordination between human beings. The office of elders makes sense in light of the fact that younger Christians need older Christians to imitate and follow.
The office of the husband makes sense in light of the distinct physical endowments given to men and women, particularly as it relates to childbearing. In other words, God’s office assignments don’t work against creation as he’s designed it, like what happens when you try to mash Lego brand blocks on top of the generic brand, and they don’t quite fit.
Rather, God’s commands and authorizations fit his design patterns. Creation, and with regard to elders new creation, and morality are suited to each other.
Jonathan Leeman:
In some ways, yeah, what I’m trying to do there in those sentences is make sense of both creation design, and what some people would refer to as natural law. I like the language of creation design and those actual formal offices or authorities that the Lord establishes. So think for a moment about the fact that I don’t understand a man to have authority, natural inherent authority over a woman in all domains.
Mark Dever:
Merely because he’s a man and she’s a woman.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. But the Lord does establish those offices in the church in a distinct way in the home. Why is that? Well, there’s something hardwired into creation, whether you call it creation design or natural law, that makes sense of those offices in those particular ways, right?
And so it takes much wisdom to discern precisely where the Lord has established offices and what the purpose is. And here’s the deal with that. Insofar as some of these things are hardwired in, they’re good, right? And we can take –
Mark Dever:
We don’t always feel that.
Jonathan Leeman:
We don’t always feel that, well, our flesh rejects it in many respects, but they’re good. And so if you don’t understand a pastor’s authority or husband’s authority, right? Or parents’ authority or workplace manager or the government’s, as a good thing, you’re going to live in continued friction with it.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, you say, if we don’t love the design, we’ll resent the office.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Now again, to show sympathy on the other side, guess what documentary on this whole kind of getting this domain I just happened to be watching last night?
Mark Dever:
I don’t know.
Jonathan Leeman:
Shining Happy People.
Mark Dever:
Oh, I watched it.
Jonathan Leeman:
And how…
Mark Dever:
It’s a Bill Gothard documentary.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. And how authority is, was just in many respects, if I’m going to take the documentary…
Mark Dever:
Neither you nor I come from that kind of background.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, we don’t.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And nor do I have first-hand knowledge. Let me just go on what, you know, the documentary represented. What Yeah, you see authority being aggressively used, perverted at times, in ways that are destructive to churches, to individuals, to families, and so forth. And it’s funny, Gothard uses that language of umbrella, an umbrella of protection. And I also use that word in my book.
Mark Dever:
Did you get that from Gothard?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I didn’t know I did. I didn’t know that he had used it until I watched this episode last night. And then I thought, oh, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But there is that continual, okay, people are going to misuse it, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are good things here.
Mark Dever:
Well, brother, that’s your very clear title, authority. I mean, you know.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. You say that so far as we’re preoccupied with ourselves and our status, we work at cross purposes with God’s larger purposes. We’re like the entitled new hire who demands to be treated as if he’s been in the company for 20 years.
He has his own agenda in mind rather than the company’s not to mention an exaggerated sense of his own importance. Getting on board with God’s agenda means being willing to be last instead of first, lowest instead of highest, interviewed instead of interviewed, and control.
It’s the person who says, Lord, I’m happy to be the lowest and last, who God grabs and says, you’re just the kind of worker I’m looking for. I’ll put you first. God wants everyone to adopt this posture, both those who are above and those who are below, the parent and the child, the manager, and the worker.
Christian-Leaders are Servant-Leaders
Jonathan Leeman:
You know, a phrase I’ve often struggled with to make sense of that Christians are quick to use is this idea of servant-leader, you know, taking from Mark 10, where Jesus came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. And so we quickly say, whoa, you know, Christian leaders are servant leaders.
And that’s true. The challenge of that phrase is it doesn’t quite say, okay, what exactly is the leader part consist of? Because Jesus was leading. Jesus was saying, go ahead and get the donkey, come out of him and, you know, be cast into the sea.
He was telling the disciples and everybody else around them what he was leading. He was exercising authority. And I feel like that side of things gets lost in some of our emphases on servant-leaders. At the same time, why is he doing it?
Well, everything that you just said, uh, he’s doing it to serve, build up, strengthen, redeem, give life. Right? So the posture of his heart, the goal was always, I’m not here to serve me. I’m here to serve you. And in the process, I am leading.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So just speaking of pastors, if you imagine the congregation Monday to Friday in their homes, in their neighborhoods, at their workplaces, in their schools, as really the front line. And what you’re doing in your office of leadership is I have this old pyramid that I used in one of my books, Nine Marks, or the Deliberate Church, How to Build a Healthy Church, being turned in four different directions to show different aspects of this leadership.
You know, there’s the boss aspect where you’re actually telling people what to do. There’s also the upfront aspect where you’re being an example. You’re leading the way. You can be imitated, but there’s also a stand behind the lines and supply that gives them what they’re going to need in order to make it.
And then there’s the underneath the holding it all up, the support, trying to make sure they’re going to be able to do this at leadership is not any, just one of those aspects. It encompasses the whole because your concentration is on that front line trying to go forward.
Leadership is a Place of Great Vulnerability
Jonathan Leeman:
Something in all of that, that became apparent to me more apparent to me, just reflecting on these questions in writing the book is how much leadership number one, places you in the position of, I would say potentially if you’re doing it right, the greatest vulnerability.
Mark Dever:
So true.
Jonathan Leeman:
Andy Crouch does a great job making this point in his book. And I remember when I read it, I’m like, yeah, that seems right. But as I continue to reflect on it and write this book, the truth of that became now we don’t see that because very often sinful leadership, sinful authority takes advantage of those under it and makes them vulnerable.
Mark Dever:
It’s the nature of its sin.
Jonathan Leeman:
But authority exercised rightly says, hey, let me put myself up front so the bullets hit me first. Let me spend the most. Let me use the power that God has given me, the resources, and spend them for your sake. And so I’m making myself vulnerable before the world, but I’m also making myself vulnerable before the divine judgment of God.
So that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is how just along those lines in that vulnerability, what a radical act of self-sacrifice it does need to be. It should be. So brother, just watching your ministry for over two decades now, it’s not like you’re getting a lot of the benefits out of this, though you are blessed and the Lord, you know…
Mark Dever:
We’re doing this interview in my study.
Jonathan Leeman:
At the same time, what do I see? I see you spending yourself continually all day. It’s not like you get to the end of the day and you’re like, man, that was gratifying because everybody just fanned my ego. No, you spend the day kind of laying yourself out before others in the work that you’re called to do as a pastor and so forth.
Mark Dever:
And here’s an example for a pastor of how glorious that is. Last night I got like three sets of intern papers left to get ready for tomorrow. So if I can just get, you know, I finished one set, if I can just get another set or two more sets done, the guy stops by, he’s been coming to our church, he’s not a Christian.
So he and I go on a long walk, talk about the gospel, get back, great time talking to him, and set up some good plans to go forward. Getting stuck into another set of intern papers, friend tech says, Hey, can I bring this friend up that he taught me about another non-Christian? So sure. So he stops up. We ended up having a great conversation for like an hour and a half or two hours by which time my brain was fried thinking, I just hope I can get more done on Wednesday. But you know, if that’s my trial, what a glorious trial is that?
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. I mean, whose car is the first one in the parking lot of the school?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, the principal.
Jonathan Leeman:
Who’s the last to leave? Usually the principal.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Who’s struggling with the weight of finances and being able to make a budget in an office? It’s the office manager or whoever. So that’s where you are volunteering yourself to take on that kind of stress, pressure, and sacrifice when you mean to lead.
Biblical Authority is Part of Evangelism
Mark Dever:
There’s so much good in this book. Friends, get it, read it for yourself, read it for small groups, read it for your family, read it for your church. If you’re a professor, if you’re a schoolroom teacher, if you’re a principal, you know, if you’re in the military, if you’re in a corporation and you manage other people, if you’re in the government, I mean, all of you, I think would find this useful, but I want to just end with what people may be surprised about when they read it.
You say that when authority is practiced well, it’s actually often part of evangelism, whether you’re talking about in the home or in the church, like a parent or a pastor. Do youh want to just explain that?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, what I say is a husband’s authority, and a pastor’s authority, I think, in their very structure are evangelistic. That’s in the context. I say that in the context of when I’m distinguishing between authority of command and authority of counsel.
Mark Dever:
Just to explain that briefly.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Authority of command means you both have, you’ve been authorized, and you have the right to make commands and to enforce them. You have a discipline mechanism for. unilaterally making sure it gets done. So a parent has the rod, the state has the sword, and the church has the keys.
Mark Dever:
So if Alberto says, look, we’re going to do two podcasts a day or I quit.
Jonathan Leeman:
Not quite that, but that’s more of just a good old threat. Um, but a parent can say to a child, you need to go to the three-year-old, you can go to bed. Why? Because I’m the parent I can enforce this. Right.
Unlike a husband or a pastor, I’m arguing now as a congregationalist, who doesn’t have that enforcement mechanism and doesn’t have the means to discipline. Right? So there’s-
Mark Dever:
Which is it when my wife tells me to eat no more chocolate ice cream? Which is that?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s a wise, good, loving wife.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Offering you wisdom. And okay, but a husband’s authority is like basically, or a pastor’s authority is like the evangelist. Can the evangelist, when he comes to you and makes an authoritative pronouncement, repent and believe, does the evangelist have the authority to enforce that?
Mark Dever:
No.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, of course not. But is the person under obligation to receive it?
Mark Dever:
Yes, but not because of the evangelist.
Jonathan Leeman:
In the same, similar, it’s not exactly the same, but analogously, when a husband or a pastor says, sweetheart, this, can he enforce it? I can’t think of a single verse in the Bible that gives a husband or a pastor an enforcement mechanism, like the parent with the child, like the government with the…
Mark Dever:
Oh, in the pastor’s case, excommunication?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, no. I mean, he then leads the church to excommunicate.
Mark Dever:
So the church’s authority in the individual member’s life is different than the pastor’s authority.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. And a pastor all by himself, you don’t go to the pastor’s office and he says, you’re not listening to me. You’re out of the church. Excommunicated. There it is.
Mark Dever:
Amen. Thank you for that, Alberto.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so in that sense, the reason we want to make a distinction between authority of council and command and talk about the evangelistic nature of a husband and a pastor’s authority, is it dramatically changes how that authority is then exercised. How do evangelists work? Graciously, winsomely, and they appeal to the person.
They speak the truth. You know, you need to follow Jesus. You need to repent and believe, or else the wrath of God… So you speak very truthfully, but you do so imminently seeking to build relationships, seeking to build trust, drawing them towards something good, right?
Knowing that the way you conduct yourself as an evangelist does impact a person’s ability to hear you. And so does, I would say with a husband and a pastor, live with your wife in an understanding way. Teach with all patience, says Paul, right?
And what you’re seeking to do is to draw them with something attractive. That’s what Song of Solomon is all about and that’s what the attractiveness of an elder’s life is all about.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, and that’s where the evangelistic fruitfulness comes in of the parent of the pastor using authority well. As Jonathan Leeman comments in his new book, Authority: How Godly Rule Protects the Vulnerable, Strengthens Communities, and Promotes Human Flourishing, Dr. Leeman, thank you for being with us today on the Pastor’s Talk.
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A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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