On Catholicity (Pastors Talk, Ep. 252)
What is catholicity? In this conversation on Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman define catholicity and talk about how it affects the church. They discuss how understanding catholicity leads us to partner with other churches and believers, but also how it may lead us to compromise on some issues. They explain how to inoculate a spirit of catholicity in your church congregation and finish by providing other resources on catholicity.
- What is Catholicity?
- How to Partner with Other Churches Well
- How to Inoculate the Spirit of Catholicity in Your Congregation
- When Catholicity Leads to Compromise
Related Resources:
Books: One Assembly, The Church
Journal: Catholicity: Churches Partnering Together
Articles: Why I Pray Publicly for Other Churches, Evangelical Catholicity and How To Foster It, Wanted: Catholic Pastors
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
This is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk.
Mark Dever:
9Marks exists
Jonathan Leeman:
to help churches.
Mark Dever:
You guys do good stuff.
Jonathan Leeman:
Build healthy churches.
Mark Dever:
For the glory of God.
Jonathan Leeman:
Learn more
Mark Dever:
at 9Marks.org, not EDU. Org.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right, not GOV, either.
Mark Dever:
No, ORG.
Jonathan Leeman:
Mark, do you know what we call our 9Marks Journal now?
Mark Dever:
Church Matters.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes. And we have rebranded it and are trying to—
Mark Dever:
I didn’t think 9Marks was into branding.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, well, maybe. We got some new colors.
Mark Dever:
We’re of unbranded brand.
Jonathan Leeman:
People made fun of us for our Microsoft blue.
Mark Dever:
I don’t even know what that is.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you remember the IX box?
Mark Dever:
Sure.
Jonathan Leeman:
What color was it?
Mark Dever:
I don’t know. Green? Blue.
Jonathan Leeman:
Stop.
Mark Dever:
Blue.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, blue. Okay. And Friends of Ours says that looks like Microsoft’s early 2000s blue.
Mark Dever:
That feels pretty modern to me.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, to a church historian, I suppose. But to others of us, it felt a bit outdated. And so it’s now black. But we also got these other colors with our new style.
Mark Dever:
Black is like all colors together. It’s like a rainbow in one pixel.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well said. And we’re also trying to do a better job with Church Matters. And Lord willing, soon, it’ll be available for subscription so a pastor and his elders can—
Mark Dever:
So it’s no longer going to be free?
Jonathan Leeman:
All the individual articles will be free. They’ll all be on the website for free. But the thing as a whole, like here is the whole journal, either you get electronically, it’ll be like a dollar or two electronically, or print on demand through Amazon or some other printer actually.
And we’ll send them to your doorstep and the doorsteps of your fellow church leaders if you want to do that. Anyhow, that’s church matters. This last church matters. That’s not up and running yet, so don’t ask. It’ll be soon.
Mark Dever:
I would love to get a subscription for all the CHBC elders.
What is Catholicity?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, exactly. That’s exactly the sort of thing we’re thinking. And Alberto is still working on that. Setting that all up. Anyway, this last one is on Catholicity.
Mark Dever:
Do you mean like the Pope?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, not like Big C Catholicity, but Little C Catholicity.
Mark Dever:
Do you mean like the Bishop of Rome?
Jonathan Leeman:
Right, not that.
Mark Dever:
Like Francis.
Jonathan Leeman:
Correct, not that.
Mark Dever:
But why would you call it Catholicity if everybody’s gonna think about Francis?
Jonathan Leeman:
In your church, you guys confess the Creed. We believe in the one.
Mark Dever:
We use the Apostles Creed, we use the Nicene Creed.
Jonathan Leeman:
You say we believe in one, holy.
Mark Dever:
Catholic, apostolic.
Jonathan Leeman:
What do you mean by Catholic when you—
Mark Dever:
Well, we don’t say Catholic, we say universal.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, do you?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Just to avoid the…
Mark Dever:
Misunderstanding, like if you use the word Catholicity, people are gonna think of Pope Francis and the Bishop of Rome.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, no, I think every time, I have found that every time I use Catholic,
Mark Dever:
the Ponte of himself, the chief bridge builder.
Jonathan Leeman:
In an article, you always have to say, we don’t mean… Explain the extent to which it is un-Catholic for the Roman Catholic Church to call themselves the only Catholic Church.
Mark Dever:
Well, it is ironic, isn’t it, that in front of the word that means universal, you stick an adjective that means a particular kind of place or a limitation.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly.
Mark Dever:
Roman Catholic. It’s like… Monday is universal. It’s like, well, okay, it’s not really universal, just Monday.
The Doctrine of Catholicity
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, right. Here’s how we define Catholicity in the journal. The doctrine of Catholicity. We have the doctrine of…
Mark Dever:
Why do you use such a fancy word? Is there not a better word like universality or something? I don’t know.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because I think it’s a good word. It’s an increasingly used word out there in the space. I don’t think just because the Roman Catholic… You know, in the same way…
Mark Dever:
I certainly use it in conversations with people who know me and are used to me using it. But I would just think—
Jonathan Leeman:
But you need to take care to define it.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, in print, in general, to an evangelical audience in North America, they’re gonna think Roman Catholic, I think.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, and that’s why every time, honestly, I use it, I ask, okay, well, we don’t mean, and if you look at other articles people have written, they always begin. In fact, you wrote The Church, an article once about it. A chapter in a book on the Catholicity of the Church. And in your first page or two, you do exactly that, I noticed.
Mark Dever:
Which is why we’re beginning this interview with that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. So how would you define Catholicity?
Mark Dever:
Universality
Jonathan Leeman:
Anything else?
Mark Dever:
Well, how you mean it, I think here in this context would be a quality of being concerned for the lordship of Jesus Christ expressed not only in your own congregation but in other congregations as well.
Jonathan Leeman:
Here’s how I define it in the article, which is a version of what you just said. The doctrine of Catholicity declares that King Jesus gathered himself people from every tribe, tongue, and nation throughout his new covenant and that this new covenant people, the church, is, therefore, a global and multifarious people, quantity and quality, different kinds, global and multifarious people, as expressed increasingly with and inside of every local congregation. What do you think?
Mark Dever:
Good. Yeah, very good.
How to Partner with Other Churches Well
Jonathan Leeman:
And then I follow that up with the demand of catholicity so indicative, imperative. The demand of catholicity is the demand placed on individual churches to recognize and partner with other gospel-preaching churches around the world as occasion allows. And in a manner appropriate to the Bible’s institutional mandates for churches.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, and I think it’s easier often for us to do that with other churches if we’re in the US in Zambia than other churches in the DC area if we’re in DC. So if I find out members of my church are joining another local church, oh, he’s marrying her, she’s going to that church, she’s going to go to her church, or yeah, they’re going to move over there because they’ve moved over there, or they just like the services better there, that’s hard on my flesh. It’s good for my spirit, I think.
Jonathan Leeman:
And that’s what I’ve witnessed here at Capitol Hill Baptist for years, is a striving to partner with other area local churches.
Mark Dever:
Really champion them.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so the rubber meets the road definition that we gave to Catholicity, the subtitle of this journal is churches partnering together. Does partnering seem too mild a word?
Mark Dever:
I mean, it’s certainly true, but it’s even more than that. It’s churches realizing their connectedness.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, there’s an indicative and imperative. The indication is we are connected in the gospel. The imperative is, okay, now, therefore, partner. But the reason, the last line of the demand is, in a manner appropriate to the Bible’s institutional mandates for churches, is our Presbyterian and Anglican brothers, partner certainly will be too weak for them because they’re gonna say…
Mark Dever:
Right, because they would say there’s a necessary structure to it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Whereas a congregationalist like you and I are gonna say, hey brother, pastors out there, you need to work at partnering. By virtue of what you are in the gospel, you need to work at partnering with other churches, which is why I think it’s…
Mark Dever:
Well, one joy of partnering, and let me just say as a congregational church, is we can partner as fully or almost as fully with Presbyterian churches and Anglican churches as we do with other Baptist churches.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Yeah, right now I’m on a cooperation committee for the SBC and I think it’s important for us as we try to figure out what it means for us to cooperate as Southern Baptist churches, what does it mean to also cooperate with Presbyterian churches?
There can be a kind of parochialism even in the Southern Baptist Convention that I think is unhealthy. So sometimes we use the language of disfellowship. We don’t want to disfellowship a church from the SBC.
And I’ve said in print and I’ve said on that committee and people are sympathetic, I think they agree. We’re not disfellowshipping a church by removing them from the SBC. If you think of fellowship as the hand of fellowship Paul talks about, we’re not excommunicating a church by saying you’re not part of the SBC.
No, they’re still a gospel preaching praise God church. We have to find better language than disfellowship them and recognize the full gospel—
Mark Dever:
We’re dis-entitying them. We’re just not cooperating with them in this particular way.
Jonathan Leeman:
They’re not a part of our convention of churches, but we have a wonderful partnership with our Presbyterian and Anglican churches and I think that’s a—
Mark Dever:
So do you cover the history of fundamentalism in the SBC in this Church Matters Journal?
Jonathan Leeman:
No.
Opposing Separatist Tendencies
Mark Dever:
So partnering together is the opposite of separatist tendency and fundamentalism.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s exactly right. And that’s one of the questions I want to ask you. Explain to us how that separatist instinct works against Catholicity. Can you unpack that?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I think it only partially works against Catholicity. Lloyd-Jones would teach us that it very much works for Catholicity with those who will separate over the same issues. You know, when Lloyd-Jones was staring at all the evangelicals in the Church of England in the 1960s, I don’t think he was so much fundamentally calling the evangelicals to come out of the Church of England, though that was an implication that many people drew, as he was calling the evangelicals to cooperate together wherever they were denominational.
Jonathan Leeman:
Inside of?
Mark Dever:
Well, that’s a matter of dispute.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
But in the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, we have a history of cooperating together, of real Catholicity in our associations locally, nationally, or statewide in state conventions, nationally in a national convention. The waves of fundamentalism that would have us separate even more than we have from other churches over doctrinal issues have helped to shape our Catholicity and our cooperation.
So a threatening wave of a sea of fundamentalism caused us in 1925 to adopt the Baptist faith and message. We had never done anything like that before. And it was exactly to protect us from fundamentalism that we adopted E.Y. Mullins chaired the Baptist Faith and Message to say, hey, look, we all agree on this.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so did that keep some churches, it pulled them back from separating?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And it made others separate. So, you know…
Jonathan Leeman:
It clarified.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, it clarified things. But it did not shove us into fundamentalism. It actually protected us from a too-separatistic kind of fundamentalism. 1963, it was revised, but that was done more by the establishment, and that actually loosened things up a bit.
Herschel Hobbs chaired that committee, I think. 98, it was revised again, but now that was different yet again because there had been a theologically conservative resurgence. It had been successful.
And so they were trying to have a tightened statement of faith. But again, they were doing that not as a kind of separatistic fundamentalism to dissolve the thing, but actually to preserve the institution, to make it more exclusive, and to slough off the more liberal, moderate theological churches, which it very effectively did.
And then they revised that slightly more clearly on gender two years later in 2000, Baptist Faith and Message. So right now, when you and I are recording this, in late 2023, the SBC is in a period where we’re looking at having yet another tightening, there have been ways that under JD Greer with concern about sex abuse scandals and unrighteousness in our churches, there was a move to tighten up things that JD led us in.
And then that’s continued on since JD in the last few years. That concern is now expressing itself in other matters pertaining to gender, including some of the brothers in the convention who are concerned that there are too many churches that have attitudes about women serving as pastors that is against what the Baptist faith and message say and Convention dollar is going to support that. And so they’re wanting to use the being a member of the SBC, whatever that language means, closely aligned with you.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s the constitutional language, closely aligned with the Baptist faith—
Mark Dever:
Used to be in friendly cooperation with, that’s what I’m used to. I guess they changed that in 2014?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that language is also used simultaneously. The churches are in friendly cooperation with the convention.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And to be friendly in cooperation with the convention, you have to be, among other things, you have to pay, you have to be closely aligned with the BF&M.
Mark Dever:
So the question for us right now is, is just saying something about what it means to be closely aligned like that, that includes underlining something in the BF&M, the Baptist Faith and Message, is that a move toward fundamentalism? Or is that a kind of protection of our catholicity?
That is, of our maintaining an orthodoxy and an orthopraxy that actually unites us with churches around the world and down through history. And that’s, it’s always a valid question to raise. So I think that Catholicity in our own convention has been an important field, an important concern, although that word has not usually been used.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Mark, it fair to say that statements of faith like that, confessions of faith, can work in both directions, both in the direction of separating and defining, hey, this is us, we’re not them, those guys, we are these guys, but it can also work in the, insofar as you’re doing that, you’re also providing an opportunity for people to unite together around a… That’s…
Mark Dever:
There’s really important work to be done in both directions with the statement of faith. So it’s got to do the watertight thing. It’s got to tar the arc. It’s got to keep serious errors out. At the same time, it has to be a rallying point.
It has to summon that commonality. It has to see the things that these two different churches across town share and bring those into clear relief so that people want to affirm those and champion them together.
Jonathan Leeman:
If we think of Catholicity as churches partnering together, again, my kind of rubber meets the road. This is what it means for you, pastor. What works against that impulse?
What works against good versions of that impulse? I’m going to ask you what bad versions of that impulse are in a second. What works in good versions?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think obviously a kind of selfishness, and self-centeredness of thinking that all good work in DC has to be through Capitol Hill Baptist Church, where we can only see 900 or 1,000 people. I mean, thank God that’s not true. We want every church in DC, in the DC area, to preach the gospel and to thrive.
Yeah, I think you just have to realize that your heart’s a pastor, you know, speaking to the pastors here, pastor, your heart is always going to tend toward wanting to care for your own congregation too exclusively. You know, it’d be like caring for your own marriage too exclusively. It’s not that you should be married to a second woman.
No, of course, you do not have any kind of exclusive care for your wife, of course. But if that exclusive care prohibits you from caring for other people, then that’s a perversion. Something’s off there.
So there needs to be a unique concern you do have for the one church you’re pastoring, certainly, but that always needs to be a perspective of Christ dying for his sheep, all of them, dying very much for those in that Methodist evangelical congregation over there as much as for your Reformed Baptist folks.
Jonathan Leeman:
The fact that the church is one holy Catholic apostolic is a faith claim. We can’t actually see the one holy Catholic Catholic.
Mark Dever:
We’re looking forward to it. The day we came to that city. We can’t see it.
Jonathan Leeman:
It is a faith. You can see your local visible church. And therefore, in some respects, it’s easy to love them and work for them and try to build them.
Mark Dever:
Well, I think the local visible church can make the universal church kind of unattractive, particularly when you’re the pastor. You’re close up to virtues, but you’re also close up to vices and your own vices that are brought out sometimes by interactions with the local church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now, our high church friends, our connectional church friends, would say that our congregational ways are anti-catholic. And so far as we’re asserting our formal independence from other churches and not under a common presbytery, not in a bishopric or episcopacy, they say we are anti-Catholic. How would you respond to that?
Mark Dever:
Oh, it depends on who’s saying it. I mean, for people who know us really well, you know, like Anglican friends, like Tony Payne or Sam Ferguson or Presbyterian friends like Lig Duncan whose birthday it is today when we’re recording this happy birthday, Ligon, and Kevin DeYoung who I just read his thing on Doug Wilson is really good.
Those brothers who know us really well, I don’t think would tag us for being anti-Catholic. I think they would see and recognize our Catholic practices, you know, in the sense we’re using the word catholic.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
But I think for people who don’t and maybe haven’t known Baptist churches that do cooperate well with others, they could be forgiven for thinking that we’re just into ourselves or churches that have the word Baptist in their title and that we don’t really care about what we have in common with evangelical Grace Brethren churches or evangelical CMA churches or evangelical Anglican churches in Uganda.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, and that’s because the Catholicity is built into the presbytery. It’s built into the General Assembly practice. So they regard themselves as…
Mark Dever:
A kind of Catholicity is.
Jonathan Leeman:
A kind of, yes.
Mark Dever:
But it can be every bit as tribal as the Congregational or Baptist kind.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fair enough. No, I think that’s right. But we are asserting an informal partnering with other churches.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. But a very real…
Jonathan Leeman:
Vigorous, robust. It’s in your pastoral prayers every week.
Mark Dever:
Well, so like right now, Cheverly Baptist Church, again, when we’re recording this, is looking for a pastor. And they’re a very near congregation to our congregation. They’re members, many of them are members here. We know and love them. And yet we have no formal responsibility…
Jonathan Leeman:
To find us a pastor.
Mark Dever:
No, or to have any part in that process. So in that sense, our Presbyterian, our Anglican brethren would look at us, they go like or Methodists would look at us and go like, you guys are a little loose in your love. You’re a little unstructured.
Jonathan Leeman:
Are you looking for a job? Any chance you wanna come and pastor?
Mark Dever:
Those people have already had me as their pastor. They chose someone else.
Jonathan Leeman:
We’d love to have you back.
Mark Dever:
I’m right here.
How to Inculcate the Spirit of Catholicity in Your Congregation
Jonathan Leeman:
All right. Mark, what are some of the things you do to inculcate a spirit of Catholicity in your own congregation?
Mark Dever:
I’ll try to speak well of other churches at the door. I’m always recommending other churches when people tell me where they’re coming from. A lot of love at our prayer meeting on Sunday nights, interviewing other pastors, even of other local churches.
Praying for their work. I certainly pray for them by name and Sunday mornings. We don’t always pray for other churches on Sunday mornings, but we almost always do.
And those are almost always churches, at least some of them, of other denominations, just to make it clear that we’re not a team on a particular brand.
Yeah, commending authors of other denominations when we give away books by Anglicans and Presbyterians and Presbyterians and Anglicans because they write all the good books.
Jonathan Leeman:
You have a page on your church website called sister churches in the Area.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And a brochure near the doors.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I was giving it to somebody not Sunday, but Sunday before that, just pointing out another church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Explain.
Mark Dever:
We just try to point out churches that we’ve had something to do with founding or relating to deeply so that if they liked what they had here, here’s a place maybe closer to where you live you could get something similar that you appreciated here.
Jonathan Leeman:
For all the emphasis that 9Marks represents in talking about your church, membership, and discipline. I’ve appreciated the way you’ve exemplified that generous-hearted, hey, push people towards other churches, both in what you talk about, but then also what you actually do at Capitol Hill Baptist.
Mark Dever:
We’ve got a short life. We’re going to be before the Lord soon. We want to spend it trying to follow the Lord. In order to do that as best possible, we need an assembly close to us where our lives are more integrated into other people’s lives daily and just the proximity of where you live and where you meet together for worship affects that.
On “The Church Matters”
Jonathan Leeman:
The first section of the journal that we just published, that’s a small j. The Church Matters. I have to still have to catch myself. The Church Matters that we just published is what…
Mark Dever:
Can we not call Church Matters a journal anymore?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, no. It is a journal for pastors.
Mark Dever:
So it is a journal.
Jonathan Leeman:
Church Matters, colon, a journal for pastors.
Mark Dever:
That’s fine.
Jonathan Leeman:
It is a journal. Yeah, no, it’s a small j. It’s not the 9Marks Journal. That was part of the title.
Mark Dever:
Oh.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. The first session was—
Mark Dever:
Was that in blue?
Jonathan Leeman:
I was probably black.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
But it used to be blue.
Jonathan Leeman:
The logo was in blue.
Mark Dever:
Was it ever in green?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, you’re thinking of the old little, What is a Healthy Church or you look at the old Nine Marks of the church book.
Mark Dever:
Remember that book, Nine Marks of the Church? That was a good one, wasn’t it?
When Catholicity Leads to Compromise
Jonathan Leeman:
That was a great one. I loved it. Now on its fourth edition. The first section is called, what is Catholicity with a bunch of general defining the thing. The last article in that section is by Jonathan Worsley called, When Catholicity Leads to Compromise. You know, Jonathan.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You know his story. What would you guess he talks about that, in that when Catholicism leads to compromise?
Mark Dever:
John is an English brother, and he has experience with our evangelical Anglican friends in England. And all of us who know and love many brothers and sisters in the Church of England are pained in seeing compromises on biblical authority that everybody from the archbishop on down seems to make.
And we don’t like that, and we hurt those brothers and sisters because we trust they love the Lord and yet they are put in positions again and again by the authorities in their church to make statements contrary to Scripture. And I assume Jonathan is ruminating on something like that, but he may surprise us. Maybe something else.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s the general…
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s the general area that he’s thinking about.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, it’s very hard to watch fights in other churches that you love.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s right.
Mark Dever:
When it’s a good versus bad. I think in the SBC right now, we’ve got a fight going on. It’s not quite good versus bad. Everybody’s saying they believe the same thing theologically. It’s just a matter of how do we best carry this out.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s right.
Mark Dever:
Well, that’s a far, it’s a harder fight because it’s not as clear, but it’s also not as desperate a fight.
Jonathan Leeman:
There’s no disagreement over the kinds of things they’re disagreeing on in the Anglican Church.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Other Resources on Catholicty
Jonathan Leeman:
In that regard. Oh, there’s a section on Catholicism and history and admittedly we don’t have a whole lot there, only a couple of articles. In Catholicity and a Divided Age, Michael Lawrence and Colin Hansen both have articles in which they’re thinking about in politically charged times, you’re dividing and people as we’ve been looking around right now are dividing over different kinds of things than they used to. We’re not dividing over the mode of baptism. Instead, we’re dividing over, are you Trump or are against Trump, for or against Trump?
Mark Dever:
Does the government have a valid responsibility for protecting us from COVID or not?
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. And so those two brothers help us think through that. And then the final section, Catholicity in the local church and then Catholicity and missions, some of the practical angles—
Mark Dever:
So is this article a kind of Wokey McWokeface issue?
Jonathan Leeman:
Which one?
Mark Dever:
The Catholicity, the whole thing.
Jonathan Leeman:
Why would you say that? No.
Mark Dever:
Because I just read that Douglas Wilson’s phrase and Kevin DeYoung’s, uh, liked each you were just looking for a chance to throw that in there. It just stuck in my mind. Wokey McWoke face. And, uh, you know, I just thought, wow, that’s, that is catchy.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you thought to yourself, I want to wait for a chance in this conversation.
Mark Dever:
And I found it right here in the end. We’re almost out of time, but I thought, I thought, you know, you had the whole journal there. I thought this would be the chance. And I just used it.
Jonathan Leeman:
You sure did. I don’t think, I don’t think this journal is that.
Mark Dever:
What do you think the chances are that anybody in Moscow, Idaho ever listen to these podcasts?
Jonathan Leeman:
I’d say pretty low.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’d say a little lower than that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think it’d be a matter of conviction. The new Christian authoritarianism, I think they did.
Mark Dever:
Well, because they thought it was about them.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right.
Mark Dever:
I wonder why they did.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m pretty confident they listened to— I doubt they listened to much more.
Mark Dever:
I wonder why they thought it was about them. Anyway.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re so…
Mark Dever:
I hear Theocast has a good one on Theonomy from a Baptist perspective.
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t know that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, Justin Perdue.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, right, okay.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the reason I like the word Catholicity…
Mark Dever:
You also liked the interview with Sean DeMars on nuance.
Jonathan Leeman:
The one on authority book?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, but he calls the series Nuance.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, right.
Mark Dever:
The podcast.
Jonathan Leeman:
Are we just naming podcasts now?
Mark Dever:
No, I was just giving a couple of other good references. We’re trying to be Catholic in spirit here. We’re trying to commend other podcasts. Let me know if I’m just giving away your listeners.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, this is great. All good podcasts.
Mark Dever:
Just put into practice what you preach.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any others you want—
Mark Dever:
There’s only two I can think about right now.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
Kevin DeYoung’s got a good one.
Mark Dever:
I’m sure.
Jonathan Leeman:
The reason I like the word Catholicity is because it’s a little weird and provocative.
Mark Dever:
It’s kind of your vibe, isn’t it? I’ve known you for a long time. Let’s be honest.
Jonathan Leeman:
Weird and provocative?
Mark Dever:
A little bit. That’s not only.
Jonathan Leeman:
Really?
Mark Dever:
The motorcycle?
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh my goodness.
Mark Dever:
Come on.
Jonathan Leeman:
That again. We’re talking 1996. HE keeps going back there. People don’t think in Catholic terms.
Mark Dever:
The convertible.
Jonathan Leeman:
I like the word to provoke them. Like, wait, what do you mean? Yes, the convertible as well.
Mark Dever:
That was a brief moment.
Mark Dever:
It was a good one.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think this conversation’s really about reaching its terminus.
Mark Dever:
No, no, no. I think we’re getting onto the actual practicalities of Catholicity.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any final comments on this topic for real?
Mark Dever:
Yes, I can ask you one serious question.
Jonathan Leeman:
One serious.
Mark Dever:
For you as a writer on things that divide evangelical Christians.
Jonathan Leeman:
Defy or divide?
Mark Dever:
Divide.
Jonathan Leeman:
Divide, yes.
Is Practicing Good Catholicity Hard?
Mark Dever:
Do you find it challenging or difficult to write about or practice the kind of Catholicity that you know is good?
Jonathan Leeman:
It takes being very deliberate.
Mark Dever:
Because you’ve spent a lot of time staring at what distinguishes us even from bad Baptists, let alone good Presbyterians or Anglicans.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think it’s easy to be divisive in your manner and tone of writing. That’s very easy.
Mark Dever:
Well, there’s the whole apology podcast you and I did with Kevin DeYoung just a few months ago.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s not what I’m talking about. No, no, no.
Mark Dever:
Well, but that was divisive. I was wrongly divisive with my tone.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. I think it’s easy to, especially in a nervous, anxious age to use language…
Mark Dever:
Could we call this age, fissiparous?
Jonathan Leeman:
Sure.
Mark Dever:
Fissiparous, starting with an F, look it up, it’s a great word.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fissiparous.
Mark Dever:
Yes, fissiparous. It’s easy to throw meat to your own little tribe and speak in severe provocative ways that you get immediate praise. Sounds prophetic.
Jonathan Leeman:
Sounds prophetic, that’s right. You’ve got to pat yourself on the back. I think it’s harder to and takes more deliberate work to say, okay, how can I say the same things, but to do so in a way that shows respect and honor to people who I know are going to disagree with me.
Sometimes you do need to be severe, of course, I’m not denying that. But at other times, you don’t have to be a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk.
Mark Dever:
The phrase that I find useful again and again to sort of correct us in our wrong non-Catholicity is the most important things about your church are never the things that are unique to your church. They’re always the things that your church shares with every other true Christian church since Jesus.
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen.
Mark Dever:
That and various forms of that saying it, again and again, is usually a quick way to help a pastor begin to perceive this kind of Catholicity.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, I plagiarize you all the time, at least in speech, not in writing. The most important thing about your church, I think, your church shares with every other church and every other time and place.
Mark Dever:
Every other true Christian church.
Jonathan Leeman:
I see that in my seminary classes and so forth. It’s very, very helpful. Thank you. Thanks for your time.
Mark Dever:
Thank you, brother. Good conversation. I hope the journal is helpful. The church matters. Sorry.
Jonathan Leeman:
There we go.
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