On Membership Interviews | Pastors Talk, Ep. 168
How should we approach church membership interviews? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman start by defining church membership interviews. They talk about who should conduct membership interviews and special considerations for conducting interviews. They discuss how to create a healthy membership interview and finish the conversation by explaining the purpose of church membership interviews.
- What is a Church Membership Interview?
- Who Should Conduct Membership Interviews?
- How Can You Conduct a Productive Membership Interview?
- The Purpose of Membership Internships
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman
Mark Dever:
And this is Mark Dever just coming in from the lovely spring outdoors.
Jonathan Leeman:
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk New and Improved with Sound Effects and Nine Marks Exist to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for building healthy churches. Learn
Mark Dever:
More ninemarks.org.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s it.
Mark Dever:
Mark, what if we want to know more about Deacons?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, you should take a look at Mass Methodists. Awesome new books, deacons, and how they serve and strengthen the church.
Mark Dever:
Why don’t we do a pastor’s talk on deacons?
Jonathan Leeman:
You know, that’s a great idea. We should, you know what Alberta just handed me when I was walking in here. Four new church questions. Book too as well. Matt McCall.
Mark Dever:
Does God love anyone? Everyone. Matt McCullough. How can I find someone to disciple me? Garrett Kel. Why should I give to my church, Jamie Dunlop
Jonathan Leeman:
And
Mark Dever:
How can women thrive in the local church? Kerry Fulmer.
Jonathan Leeman:
So, there are little booklets to hand out to members of your church.
Mark Dever:
Great.
Jonathan Leeman:
They’re all fantastic. They just came out this month.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And here’s one that’s been out for over a hundred years, only a prayer meeting by CH Spurgeon. Here’s a book we have no financial interest in whatsoever, but that your soul could be edified by.
That’s CH Spurgeon. Only a prayer meeting. Christian focused on Scotland and published it. Find a copy. Get it. Read it and edify your church. Only a prayer meeting.
Jonathan Leeman:
And it’s like five times thicker than these rules by CH.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, but the print is big and the pages are small.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, Mark, I looked through all of our pastor’s talks and realized that we’ve never done one on membership interviews.
Mark Dever:
Oh really?
Jonathan Leeman:
I assume we’ve mentioned them along the way. Discuss them. But we’ve not done one of those topics, so I want to think about the who, and the how.
Mark Dever:
Oh, membership interviews, huh? Wow. Alright then. Okay. Well, speaking of CH Spurgeon, there’s a book called Wonders of Grace, original Testimonies of Covered during Spurgeon’s early years, which the Metropolitan Tabernacle these days in London publishes.
It’s by Hena WinCo, W-Y-N-C-O-L, the Wakeman Trust of London, wonders of Grace. I would encourage you to get a copy of this.
Jonathan Leeman:
Did he talk about membership interviews?
Mark Dever:
Yes. It’s testimonies of people who were joining Metropolitan and Tabernacle. And it’s like reading the notes from our membership interviews. I mean they were asking all the same stuff.
Jonathan Leeman:
I remember when I first became an elder at CHBC and read those testimonies, how encouraging they were.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now am I right in thinking he had a much higher, a lot more questions he asked for members? Is that true or not true?
Mark Dever:
I can’t remember. Jeff Chang would know that. I can’t remember. Sorry man.
What is a Church Membership Interview?
Jonathan Leeman:
We’ll get to the how in a second. First thing first, what is a membership interview?
Mark Dever:
It’s a time when one of the pastors of the church sits down with a person wanting to become a member and hears essentially their testimony, how they were converted, and what they’ve done since conversion. So check out their life to match their testimony and here’s and receive their affirmation of the church’s statement of faith, what we believe and church covenant, hand ow we will live.
Jonathan Leeman:
Are they in the Bible membership interviews? That is
Mark Dever:
No,
Jonathan Leeman:
Just no, that’s all you got? No. Could I go out on a limb and say the form? But the element is
Mark Dever:
I think you could.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m thinking of Matthew 16. Jesus wants to know. Who do you say that I am? I’m thinking of one John chapter four where it says, test the spirit and make sure they say they Jesus is from God. Right.
And come into flesh. So there’s obviously the church has interest in knowing if people understand the gospel. I think that’s indisputable. Would you agree with that?
Mark Dever:
I do. And I think the whole practice of church discipline presumes that you have a relationship that you can be excluded from. That is membership. And if that’s the case, well you must be able to be introduced into it.
And the question is, would you ever have somebody wanting to be introduced to it? Who shouldn’t be? And if so, how do you know? And that’s the prudence then of figuring out, okay, so what do we do?
Jonathan Leeman:
Galatians 1, Paul assumes they all know the gospel. Romans 6, he assumes they’ve all been baptized. Right. So would you say membership interviews are a must? Like, is this a they work in 2021 Washington DC thing or are they every church and every time and every place must do membership interviews?
Mark Dever:
If I’ve got five people raised as Muslims in Kyrgyzstan in a middle-sized town and we know that we have all come to believe Jesus the Messiah, it might be a formality that would be pointless if everybody sort of knows everybody who’s a believer knows their story.
Jonathan Leeman:
But there’s the knowing of the story and that’s the crucial element and understanding of the gospel.
Mark Dever:
And there has to be some point, I think analogous to the membership speaking to the sinner who has been a member but who will not turn loose of their sin in Matthew 18. There has to be an analogous point of the congregation speaking to the person who wants admittance into membership at first.
So somehow this can’t just be the elders accepting somebody into membership, let alone the person just placing themselves in membership. Oh, I consider myself a member of this church. I attend here regularly.
Not only do the elders need to hear and help evaluate, but you would go to a doctor for a physical, this is like a spiritual, you can go to the elders for an interview, a membership interview, but the elders at CHBC. Anyway, we turn and present a summary of that to the members and then the members vote.
It has to be the members who basically speak acceptance to the individual into their number because they’re covenanting with them in the language of the covenant to care for them and to be cared for by them. And that’s a consensual relationship. It’s not just mandated upon somebody. It’s a consensual relationship.
Jonathan Leeman:
So it’s not just Baptist churches doing this though, only in Baptist churches are you going to fire congregational churches. You’re going to find the congregation speaking that acceptance as you say. But are Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, and Lutheran churches doing something similar to a membership interview as well among adults seeking to join the church?
Mark Dever:
Oh, historically, I’m not sure, but practice varies today. I certainly know evangelical churches in some of those traditions that do practice, things like that. So if you’re in a Methodist church, an evangelical Methodist church, and you want to experience confirmation that is where you’ve been baptized as an infant, but now you want to begin taking the Lord’s supper, you go through a confirmation class at age 12, and then at the end of that you’re supposed to yourself personally affirm your faith.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m thinking of even just moving to another city. I moved to Jackson, Mississippi and I want to join First Press. Presumably, there’d be some kind of
Mark Dever:
Yeah, they do have a membership class in that particular, I just happen to know that.
History of Membership Interviews
Jonathan Leeman:
Speaking of Baptist churches, is this something they were doing as we think about membership interviews in our modern form, is this something they were doing in the 17th, or 18th century?
Mark Dever:
Yes, I think so. I’m trying to think through how I know that. I’m thinking of these interviews that Spurgeon did in the 19th century and I’m assuming there would’ve been conversations like that. I’m not sure I can think of primary sources on that. Somebody listening to me will know some if you do shoot some into 9marks and we’ll put ’em up.
Jonathan Leeman:
That would be fun to look into. Have somebody listen in.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So if you’re listening to this and of examples of records of 16th, 17th, and 18th century membership interviews, let us know.
Who Should Conduct Membership Interviews?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. All that’s on the what? Lemme think about who should do membership interviews.
Mark Dever:
Elders, pastors.
Jonathan Leeman:
Would you have anybody else in the room who’s not an elder or a pastor?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, if they’re there to learn.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Now I have friends in other churches who are not elders and they do them
Mark Dever:
As employees, staff or something?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I just mean active members.
Mark Dever:
Oh, members like a lay ministry.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, a lay ministry. Do you have advice for them? Do they need to resign and protest and say, no, this has to be an elder?
Mark Dever:
No, no, no. It just seems prudent that if the elders are going to lead in discernment this would be a key place to do that.
Jonathan Leeman:
So what should those who serve in those capacities right now do?
Mark Dever:
I talk to their pastor about it and ask why that’s just being entrusted to members generally and not to the elders in particular.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you’re saying –
Mark Dever
It is just a matter of prudence. I wouldn’t go further.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s not saying you’re saying it’s prudence.
Fair enough. Any special considerations you have?
Mark Dever:
Do you do any membership interviews?
Jonathan Leeman:
I do.
Mark Dever:
So even though you’re not in the pay of your local church, you make time presumably not on nine marks time,
Jonathan Leeman:
Presumably? Correct.
Mark Dever:
Okay. I just gave ’em the eye. Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, they’re wonderful, delightful things to do. I might do them on a lunch break.
Mark Dever:
Sure, that’s fine. You get lunch
Jonathan Leeman:
Or evening or a weekend
Mark Dever:
Or smoke break.
Jonathan Leeman:
I haven’t taken too many of those
Mark Dever:
In a while.
How Should Women’s Membership Interviews Be Conducted?
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you have any special considerations when you’re doing them with women?
Mark Dever:
I would rarely do them alone. If I’m doing it alone, it would be in the church office with doors and windows that are glass and other people in the office. But I would almost always have somebody else there. I mean it’s going to be me and another elder or maybe a pastoral assistant or an intern.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any other special considerations for people? I don’t have anything in mind, but just like, okay, these people need special care this way, that way.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. If you’ve got somebody who for whatever reason is going to be especially intimidated, I don’t think it’s wrong for you to ask them, tell ’em that their spouse is welcome to be there or if they’re not married, you’re welcome to bring a friend if that’s going to encourage you or be helpful to you.
So I’d be very sensitive to, if you get the sense that somebody is feeling very like, oh no, this is terrifying. You want to help ’em out and be their friend. You don’t want it to be terrifying.
How Can You Conduct a Productive Membership Interview?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, right. Now sit there. I’m getting into the how now you sit there with pen and hand and write down answers on a piece of paper.
Mark Dever:
I do. Most people use I think a typewriter, what do you call them? A laptop. Sorry,
Jonathan Leeman:
A typewriter.
Mark Dever:
Generational slip there. Use a laptop and you type.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s what I do. That’s what I do.
Mark Dever:
That’s more legible. I think people appreciate that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Walk us through it. What do you do? Just start to finish.
Mark Dever:
Name, address, marital status, name of husband or wife, name of children when they were born, when you got married. Are you divorced? If so, do you mind if ask you some questions about that? Trying to get to the bottom of that and understand what that is. Then asking,
Jonathan Leeman:
Have you been baptized?
Mark Dever:
I’ll get there. Not yet. If you take it out of order, it’s going to confuse me.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, got it.
Mark Dever:
Then I’m going to ask their testimony and that’s where most of the time is going to be their experience in coming to know Christ and what it’s been like to know Christ from until now. I’ll ask them what church they’re coming from, if they’ve been baptized, if they’ve in fact come from another church, I’m going to ask ’em about their decision to leave that church.
If it’s in the area, I’m going to ask ’em about signing the statement of faith in the church covenant. I’m going to ask them to share the gospel with me in 60 seconds or less.
Jonathan Leeman:
Why 60 seconds or less?
Mark Dever:
Just so I can hear their understanding of the gospel succinctly placed and if something’s missing, I can suggest it to them, and if they like it, great. And if they don’t, that’s a concern.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do people ever panic when you ask ’em that question?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, but I try to ask it with a kind of self-consciousness for about 60 seconds so that I don’t want to say humor, but there’s a
Jonathan Leeman:
Lightness.
Mark Dever:
There’s a lightness to that aspect of it. Not the gospel, but to that obviously arbitrary limitation, but it’s to make them focus their thoughts and their words.
Jonathan Leeman:
You don’t glare at them like you did with me a moment ago when asking about my
Mark Dever:
Your time. How you spend your time with 9Marks.
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly.
Mark Dever:
No, I don’t.
Jonathan Leeman:
What if they get the gospel wrong?
Mark Dever:
Well, it depends on why they get it wrong. I mean if they’re getting it wrong, they really are trusting in their own works. I hope that’s going to be obvious from the way they’ve shared their testimony, and what they’ve said about the gospel in other ways positively. And then I can ask them some questions to try to help discern whether or not they are trusting in their own works.
Jonathan Leeman:
What if they don’t say God, Man, Christ, Response or they don’t say penal substitutionary atonement? They don’t say something theologically precise. It’s just kind of vague, and unclear. I’m not sure
Mark Dever:
That’s pretty common that that happens. But then when I have listened to them, if I’m hearing that they are not assuming they’re saved because of what they’ve done, but because of who Christ is and what he’s done, that’s good.
And then I might ask them some questions about the cross. It’s a necessity, the resurrection, it’s a necessity, their repentance. It’s a necessity. So it just depends on what the conversation’s like.
Jonathan Leeman:
Did I hear it from you or learn from you? I forget. I just don’t want to say the question of repentance. Following up with something like you have a friend who’s living in sin.
Mark Dever:
That’s me. Yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
What do you say?
Mark Dever:
Yeah,
Jonathan Leeman:
So you’re trying to help them out and flesh these things out.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. Trying to make it living and real so they understand what I mean.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do people miss the resurrection?
Mark Dever:
Frequently, but they believe in it. It’s just they don’t think does well, they’re saying the cross and they assume that’s going to include the resurrection. What good is the cross with no resurrection? None at all.
Jonathan Leeman:
We could drill down on the Have you been baptized? But that seems like that would be its whole own conversation. You ask, have you been disciplined by a church? What do you do if they say yes?
Mark Dever:
We ask more questions about the church and the nature of what the church understood their offense to be and then how they represent having been reconciled or do they represent that they’ve been reconciled? And it starts to get much more complicated depending on what it is, what our take on them is, what our take on that church is, what that church has done publicly or not what that church has said they’ve done.
So it quickly gets a lot more complicated. In the very rare times, I’ve seen that happen. Of course, someone could be and they just don’t tell you. But then we don’t become a detective agency. We only do so much work. And then really it’s over to them and the Holy Spirit to be honest. That’s
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. How long these membership reviews typically last
Mark Dever:
Short, it would be 20 minutes long if you’re dealing with an older married couple could be an hour, hour, and a half.
The Purpose of Membership Interviews
Jonathan Leeman:
True or false? The purpose of a membership interview is not simply to ask questions, it’s also to shepherd and disciple.
Mark Dever:
Very true. You’re hearing about their life. You’re hearing about who they are. They’re watching you listen. They’re watching you, taking in the information they’re knowing when they come on Sunday, they see your face.
You’re now somebody who knows about their daughter. Maybe you ask how she’s doing. Tell her you’re praying. It’s so much the beginning of pastoring that person.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I think even the very nature of the questions shows the things that you value and that you think are important. So when you follow up with that question on repentance, for instance, you’re effectively teaching. We’re not an easy believism church.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. It’s like you were just teaching with that question. You asked me masqueraded as a question. Are you really making a point Now you’re really telling me I should have been saying these things that you’re now saying to enlighten this with. That’s exactly right.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s how I put is it true or false? I remember sitting in a membership interview with you when I was an intern here. This is way back in 2000 or so, and I remember it was a membership interview.
It might’ve been a reverse membership interview, another thing, but same basic idea. She had admitted that her parents were divorced and you started in her testimony, you started to inquire about the divorce and then you made a fairly, I thought at the time, at the moment, it felt to me like a brazen is too strong, but certainly a strong statement.
We’ll have your parents repentant of that sin, has your mother repented of that sin? And I thought, whoa, at that moment you were discipling, you were shepherding. I don’t assume you remember that particular conversation,
Mark Dever:
But no conversations like that. I can assume that I was trying to make sure that the sister understood what marriage was and what we’re called to do and be as Christians and that her parents had not confused her on that point.
Jonathan Leeman:
Ballpark, you’ve conducted 10 interviews, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, probably a thousand. How many times would you estimate you’ve said no at the end of it?
Mark Dever:
Probably never. I mean what happens is there’s a few times when I’ve so upset the person they leave. There are more times –
Jonathan Leeman:
They’ve walked out.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. There are more times when I have without at all trying to make ’em feel like they failed. Just said, I stopped it during the interview, without telling ’em I’m stopping during the interview for all they know is the way we always do it.
And I’m just saying, oh well Tom, it’s been great to have this time with you. I think it’d be really helpful at this point for you to look through Mark’s gospel.
We have folks in the church who are happy to do six studies to grow in your understanding of Jesus. And then why don’t you do those and then I’ll look forward to calling me back and we’ll keep going. And they’ll go, oh great.
I’d love to do that. And it’s never been a problem. I don’t present like, you failed. You didn’t answer correctly. Now we’re going to put you in the remedial class because it’s not that because you’re just taking people where they are and you’re trying to help them spiritually.
Jonathan Leeman:
I forget if I’ve told this story, but one time I think I did something in between the and the, Hey, this is the next step. I said something that she didn’t get the gospel right. I tried to give her all the help she could. She couldn’t get it right.
And finally, I said, well, tell you what, I have a sister in the church who would love to walk through Mark’s gospel with you exactly the way you just said. And she starts crying immediately and says So you’re saying no.
Mark Dever:
Oh my goodness.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I said I’m saying let’s hit the pause button and do these studies in the book of Mark. Because your answer to that question, what is the gospel, is the single most important question you will ever answer in your life, both for your own sake and for the sake of your friends and your family who you can share it with.
And I want to make sure you understand the gospel really well. So no, I’m saying pause. Let’s hit the pause button and then she did it.
Mark Dever:
That’s great.
Jonathan Leeman:
Two or three weeks later I was back there with her and she got it wonderfully. But I dunno if you have any tips on how to do that a little bit more smoothly. I’m open to them. How many times have you done something like that where you’ve had to say, let’s pause.
Mark Dever:
Low side 30, high side a hundred.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
Somewhere in there.
Are Membership Interviews Enjoyable?
Jonathan Leeman:
Out of the thousand, do you enjoy membership interviews?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I mean I don’t do them these days. Just generally. It took so long and at one point the elder stepped in and told me to stop
Jonathan Leeman:
Doing all you were doing all of them.
Mark Dever:
I was doing all of them for the first 15 years I was here 12 years I was here. But I mean, when you have as large a church as we do with as much turnover, you’re just doing, I’m sure there have been thousands of membership interviews done at this church in the 25 years I’ve been here and we only have eight or 900 members usually
Jonathan Leeman:
In terms of order of importance in revitalizing a church or just simply pastoring and leading a church towards health rank membership interviews.
Mark Dever:
And it’s probably right after preaching and prayer. It’s way important because as a matter of prudence, it gives you an understanding of how this individual is trusting in Christ or not, at least from their own words, and apart from talking to them about it, you have no
Jonathan Leeman:
Idea you’re functioning at the shepherd, at the sheep pen
Mark Dever:
At the gate. Exactly right.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re helping to give shape to the very body of the church.
Mark Dever:
You’re giving them a basic physical so they can know about their health.
Jonathan Leeman:
Good words. Any last comment on this topic of membership interviews?
Mark Dever:
They didn’t do them when I came
Jonathan Leeman:
At Capitol Baptist, 1994.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. And yet nobody was upset by me starting to do them. It doesn’t affect the current membership and it immediately gives you, if you’re the pastor of the church and you’re doing these interviews, an understanding of all the new people coming in.
It gives you a connection with them. It gives you a chance to parlor, and preach the gospel to them. Just sort of one-on-one. Yeah. I can’t say enough good things about ’em, how it helps you as a pastor and helps them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thanks for your time, brother.
Mark Dever:
Thank you, Jonathan.
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