On The Fear of Man (Pastors Talk, Ep. 227)
What is fear of man and how does it affect ministry? During this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever flesh out why fear of man is prevalent among young pastors and common signs that make it evident in your own life. They give advice for combating the fear of man, such as cultivating meaningful relationships with other pastors in your community. Finally, they address pastoring others in your church who are struggling with fear of man.
- What is Fear of Man?
- How Fear of Man is Evident in Pastors’ Lives
- Fostering Relationships Helps Combat Fear of Man
- How to Battle Insecurity
- How to Pastor Others Who Fear Man Well
Resources Referenced
- When People Are Big and God Is Small by Ed Welch (ed. 1) (forthcoming ed. 2)
- “Why Every Pastor-in-Training Should Read Ed’s Book” by Michael Lawrence
Related References
- “Pastors, Fight Against Fear of Man by Fighting for the Fear of the Lord” by Dave Cook
- “Book Review: When People Are Big and God is Small, by Ed Welch” by Greg Gilbert
- “How Pastor Mark Passes Out Authority” by Jonathan Leeman
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman. The child who is with me.
Mark Dever:
And that is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk.
Mark Dever:
Pastor’s Talk exists for the glory of God.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep. And we try to glorify God…
Mark Dever:
Because we want to see local churches reformed
Jonathan Leeman:
By helping pastors build healthy churches, learn more at 9Marks.org. Mark, I heard.
Mark Dever:
Which has been going on here for over 25 years now.
Jonathan Leeman:
Two and a half decades.
Mark Dever:
And have you been there the whole time?
Jonathan Leeman:
I 2006, no.
Mark Dever:
But you were talking into it. But you were talking into it before you were
Jonathan Leeman:
A little bit. I mean, I did the sermon overview things for you. I don’t know if that was
Mark Dever:
Yeah, you edited all those
Jonathan Leeman:
I edited all of those that were like 4 or 5
Mark Dever:
It was just me in Capitol Hill. That wasn’t 9Marks.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s what I thought. I don’t; maybe I wrote a few articles back in a three or four or something in the bag.
Mark Dever:
But you were always like Mr. Analytical dude.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes.
Mark Dever:
So you were always,
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s, that’s what my friends call me. Hey, Johnathan, analytical.
Mark Dever:
You were always, you know, giving us your view
Jonathan Leeman:
Pontificating opinionating. Well, I want you to give your opinion today on the topic.
Mark Dever:
I think Warren Harding would have said bloviating.
Jonathan Leeman:
Wow. That’s different.
Mark Dever:
Bloviating. The 19th-century word that he picked back up.
Jonathan Leeman:
Has a different set of residences than opining.
Mark Dever:
From which we get an opinion.
What is Fear of Man?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s exactly. I do have those. You have those as well. I’d like your opinion on this. Someone once said the ministry is a wonderful place for insecure men to hide. True? False?
The seminary professor actually said that ministry is a wonderful place for insecure men to hide.
Mark Dever:
I assume they meant that sarcastically.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I think he meant it as a warning.
Mark Dever:
Oh. I think it’s a bit of a rough territory for deeply insecure men. I understand that nobody is perfectly secure and no one is, you know, finished with sanctification. But I think in the ministry, normally you’re going to be exposed to enough criticism that if you’re very sensitive to criticism,
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s hard to hide.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, you’d find it a, there are a lot of easier things you could do.
Jonathan Leeman:
You began every internship class by sending them in the mail copies of Ed Welsh’s When Man is Big
Mark Dever:
When People are Big and God is Small.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you. Why do you do that? Why do you start internships? And ask them to write a paper, which they have to write before the internship, which you then read and discuss when they show up. Why do you start writing?
Mark Dever:
Well, it’s a paper about themselves. They’re using Ed’s book just as a spectacle because they’re about to step into a situation in which one of the greatest blocks to their being able to learn will be their pride. And the greatest help to their being able to learn will be their humility.
Jonathan Leeman:
I was teaching in South Africa, a group of pastors, 30, 40 pastors, and this was in 06, 07, 08 from the, I can’t say it, but Khosa tribe, something like that.
And I remember a young man in his late 20s, a pastor, raised his hand after we’d been lecturing for a day or two, and he said something to the effect of, I really struggle with what members of my church, and especially the older people, think of me. And that hinders me from saying some of the things I want to say.
And I remember when he said that, I thought to myself, well, you sound like people I know back home. Here we are in a completely different cultural context, but same problem. Challenges of fear of man. What is fear of man?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think as Ed means it in that book and as we’re using it right now in sort of popular Christian parlance, it means as opposed to fear of the Lord.
Jonathan Leeman:
Synonymous with insecurity. Can we use those terms interchangeably?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. It’s a nicely more biblical idea. It frames things. Insecurity sounds like something that you want to pity that’s lacking that should be there.
Whereas fear of man sounds more like idolatry because you’re taking that fear of, and we know from scripture that’s supposed to be the Lord that we alone supremely fear, and it’s replacing the Lord with each other.
How Fear of Man is Evident in Pastors’ Lives
Jonathan Leeman:
Why is fear of man a challenge for pastors? And can we say common?
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, because I think we’re constantly… doing things in public and no one is compelling anyone to come into our churches.
So particularly if you’re the main preacher in your congregation, whether you have 30 people there or 300, you know, people are having to choose to come. And yeah, if they stop choosing to come, that seems like a pretty immediate public, visible to all referendum on you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Your livelihood depends on it, but so does your kind of special grace-making disciples vocational ministry depends on it.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s right. And I mean, is that one of the main reasons you’ve decided to not be a full-time teacher?
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t think so, but it’s a good question to ask. Thank you.
Mark Dever:
Because you were a successful preacher in the Caribbean.
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t know if I was or not. Things went well, but no, I think I felt called to keep doing what I’m doing right now. What are the different ways fear of man manifests itself among young pastors? Here I am walking into the doctor’s office. I need to know what some of the symptoms are.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I think if there are people sitting there in your congregation that you are, it’s going to sound vague, but I’m not sure how better to say it, too aware of how they’re going to respond. To something you say and if that dominates your thoughts more than is what I’m saying pleasing to the Lord.
It’s what I’m saying faithful to scripture and honoring God. I remember I had an older member once, she’s now at home with the Lord I trust. She didn’t like a particular thing that I did and she was threatening to give her money elsewhere to someone who would do what she wanted in this particular regard.
And I just looked at her and I called her by name and I just said, oh, hmm. You don’t want a pastor that listens to talk like that. And she said, uh, she was flustered and she said, you’re right. You know, I mean, I was kind of banking on her basic godliness. You know, that would be a temptation to wear a pastor.
You kind of give in, but I, I thought I knew her well enough and thought she really, she really did love the Lord who probably is her pastor. I should humorously a little bit, but you know, just lovingly think better of her in front of her.
Jonathan Leeman:
So you said this is a common struggle for pastors. It shows up in being tempted to do what pleases you in moments like that. Where else is it showing?
How Fear of Man Affects Sermons
Mark Dever:
In what you cover and don’t cover in your sermons, in what you confront or don’t confront or raise questions about in fellow leaders or other just people in the church, in how you let things mound up in relationships that just make them difficult to avoid those people. You just find you have more and more people you avoid in your congregation.
That’s a sign you should probably be doing something about it. If the list of people you kind of blocked relationally and your congregation moves from five to 15 to 35 to 55, yeah, you should be, you should be a, at least letting a good friend know about that and help them to investigate your heart in that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Could it be, yeah, a growing antipathy and dislike of certain people or certain kinds of people indicate a fear of man?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
How Fear of Man Affects Our Interactions
Jonathan Leeman:
I also in just my own experience, I’ve noticed that fear of man can tempt me both to not say things I should kind like the example you just gave as well as say things I shouldn’t.
Mark Dever:
Oh sure, that’s true. To curry favor.
Jonathan Leeman:
To curry favor, to go along with the crowd. Sometimes I can think of it in the context of an elder meeting where I feel myself being challenged or my position being challenged.
I feel like it depends on me. I’ve got to speak louder in order to convince in it
Mark Dever:
Convince yourself or to convince others?
Jonathan Leeman:
No, convince them. Because there’s a sense in which I’m not trusting in the Lord. I’m trusting in my own ability and I need to impress them or convince them or persuade them or something like that. I just want to push harder. Which ironically is a kind of fear of man.
Mark Dever:
Maybe it is at least is a bad political sense
Jonathan Leeman:
Is it possible that people who are outwardly confident Articulate persuasive and so forth are inwardly insecure?
Mark Dever:
Yes. It’s not necessarily the case some people imagine that everybody is just you know cripplingly insecure
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
and they just look around at everybody and they analyze everything that way and I’m pretty confident. That’s not the case. There’s a whole other category of people who are just clueless.
If you think the crippling fear of man is the only result of the fall, then I think you have an insufficient people spectrum of understanding ways that the fall has affected us.
But I do think that fear of man does not always present itself as obvious, you know, simpering desire to please the person in front of you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Obsequiousness.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Sometimes people have learned that a particular bravado or apparent leadership is largely well received and therefore that’s the role they adopt.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
I think that’s certainly true.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m inclined to say a lot of unfaithful ministry across churches is the property of insecurity and slash fear of man and the pastors. True, or false? What do you think?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think that has to be true. I think the whole conversation, I’m a little… I’m cautious about casting every vice.
Jonathan Leeman:
into a grand unifying theory of the universe.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, as fear of man. Insofar as opposed to fear of the Lord, it is a nice dichotomy. It’s like, it’s pride.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fear of the Lord, the beginning of wisdom, this is anti-wisdom.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. So we can do it that way. I’m not sure how much light that brings on the topic, but yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
I do think it’s worth raising the flag on this one a little bit. I do think many people may be obsessed with it already, but my sense is that others seldom stop to give thought to how much they fear man over and against the Lord.
Mark Dever:
I think it’s true. And I think it leads to a two-facedness, leads to lying.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hypocrisy is a fear of man.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. It leads to a lack of manly forthrightness.
Fostering Relationships Helps Combat Fear of Man
Jonathan Leeman:
How does fostering meaningful relationships with other pastors help a man combat his own insecurities and or others in the congregation?
Fostering meaningful relations with other pastors or other folks in the congregation.
Mark Dever:
I think that phrase you’re using, meaningful relationship, presumes honesty of expression and vulnerability. So when you meet with Philip, Bill, and Klon, you know, I trust you have a straightforwardness in your conversations with them.
That you’re not finally trying to adjudicate their feelings about you. You trust that they love you, that they’re informed by Scripture, and that their words are going to be reflecting what the Lord has said in His Word.
And that if it comes to them risking your love for them, in order for you to hear the truth from God, they’re willing to do that. And that’s the way you’re conducting that relationship. So that’s the way we want to conduct all of our relationships.
You know, whether I’m just quickly responding to an email of a person I don’t know well, or having a long walking conversation with a friend like Jamie Dunlop that I just had over lunch today. I want to make sure that we’re relating both for his life and my life transparently, or else it’s a kind of wasted time.
And the only way you could do that is if you’re not trying to fundamentally make sure I appear like something praiseworthy to the person I’m speaking to, but something accurate so that trusting His love for me and His love for the Lord so that we can together kind of walk on.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s a great reflection because I find that stepping into those contexts, even then there are temptations in my heart for them to make much of me, right?
To be a, remember John Fulmer using the phrase, a glory thief. And deliberately putting those things in front of them that I know.
Mark Dever:
Those things.
Jonathan Leeman:
Those things about me that will embarrass me are good for my heart and my soul.
In the same way, I recall you praying for the church in your pastoral prayer or making a prayer request on a Sunday evening that we would share embarrassing things about ourselves with others. All of that is a direct assault on the fear of man.
Mark Dever:
Right. And when I’ve gone, particularly when I’ve gone into new situations, I’ve deliberately tried to embarrass myself accurately, not inaccurately.
Jonathan Leeman:
What do you mean?
Mark Dever:
When I first went to do my PhD, I met my PhD supervisor who was not to the best of my knowledge, an evangelical Christian. I introduced myself as a fundamentalist. I said I believe in a literal Adam and Eve.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is a Roman Catholic.
Mark Dever:
He was, and a kind of progressive one, a literal crucifixion, resurrection, ascension of Christ, literal return, inherent Bible, believe in predestination, I believe the only way you can be forgiven your sins is through self-conscious faith in Christ. I believe in eternal hell.
I mean, I just, you know, I just made it clear. I believe in all this, but I said, I’m going to be praying for you every day. If there’s anything you want me to pray about, please just let me know.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you did settle those things because you knew he would culturally despise them?
Mark Dever:
Well, because I knew that my own temptation would be to try to have respect and respect in an academic community could too often be exclusive of such faith that I would want to appear reasonable.
So I just thought, let’s just burn that bridge as fast as we can. The same thing as when I was a little kid and I was going to go over to the pool across the street in the morning in the two ways to get in.
You stick your toe, then two toes and three toes. Or you just go to the deep end and jump in.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
And I just thought like, and I would just be, I would just be revving myself up all morning. Like walk over, he walked straight in that deep end and jump in and let’s just save the time, you know.
So that’s what I’ve tried to do relationally, particularly when I’m going into a new situation, it’s a new group of people. I want to act in such a way that I wreck any false bases of their esteem for me that I know I would value.
Jonathan Leeman:
See, to give you my own grand unifying theory of the universe, that’s why I do think this is a big deal because I do think it goes to the heart of justification in a certain sense.
What makes me valuable? What makes me worthy? What makes me… worth existing and affirmed. In some sense, all of life is about answering that question. And I want people to think I am good.
Now in creation, God says, it is good, there’s your justification. But then of course we fall and then we seek it out on our own by worshiping false gods and so forth.
And finally, Christ comes along and says, alien justification. It’s my righteousness that makes you worth something. And insofar as we’re trying to displace that alien righteousness and find it in something else.
Mark Dever:
Something that we can do.
Jonathan Leeman:
Something that we can do. It’s all about getting people to make much of us. And in a sense, that’s why I think this conversation goes right to the heart of the gospel. And the gospel finally is a solution.
Mark Dever:
Well, it’s one of the reasons we have the interns write those papers because I know it’s going to be, you know, a number of young men coming in and they’re going to naturally feel competitive with each other.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
And they are going to particularly want my esteem. And they all write about this like it’s the very, you know, total, the very depth of total depravity and just a shocking revelation in their initial papers.
When I’m just thinking like every single paper I’ve ever gotten from an intern says this, I’m so glad for you. It’s been a depth of self-revelation. I pray this continues.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, pastoral ministry is necessarily public. You’re putting your intellectual goods as it were in front of others.
Mark Dever:
Well, there are some churches where intellectuals are not valued, you know, there are other, there are other, your ability to entertain your ability to inspire whatever is valued in your community, in your church.
Jonathan Leeman:
So to the extent you can kill this, the more effective you are, are going to be, pound for pound, in saying what needs to be said.
Mark Dever:
The more you can be directed by scripture, the more you can hopefully teach them to observe all that I have commanded you, even the stuff they wouldn’t like.
How to Battle Insecurity
Jonathan Leeman:
So with these young men coming in who are tempted to compete, how does sermon service review help combat insecurity instead of fortifying it?
Before you answer that, I mean, I recall when I was here and would sometimes preach, especially in the beginning, let’s go back 15, 20 years ago, I remember I’d preach and then the afternoon I’d be like, oh, what are they going to say in service review?
And it could provoke in me fear of man. How do you work against that or expect that not to happen every time?
Mark Dever:
Well, you realize that you say provoke in me that fear of man.
Jonathan Leeman:
Elicit what was already there in my heart.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I appreciate your high view of yourself, but I think that all we’re doing is drawing out what’s there.
Jonathan Leeman:
Absolutely.
Mark Dever:
So if we can help people be aware of that, I think we’ve served them. You know, Psalm 141 verse 5, let a righteous man strike me. It is a kindness. Let him rebuke me. It is oil for my head. Let my head not refuse it.
That’s what we want to be able to build a structure for as we review the course seminars, the music, the prayers, the sermon. That’s what we want to be able to help each other. What I always say, there are four things we’re trying to model at our service review time.
We’re trying to model giving godly criticism. We’re trying to model giving godly encouragement. We’re trying to model receiving godly criticism. And we’re trying to model receiving godly encouragement.
All four of those are slightly different than each other, slightly different skills. Some guys may be really good at giving godly encouragement, but you know, they’re just not quite as good at receiving godly encouragement. You know, I think all four of those are important things to learn to give and receive.
Jonathan Leeman:
And they can challenge a person, personality type in different kinds of ways.
Mark Dever:
That’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. So I’m pastor of a large church. I’m the pastor of a small church, whatever. I find myself really struggling with caring about what my sheep think of me.
Mark Dever:
You mean caring too much?
Jonathan Leeman:
Caring too much.
Mark Dever:
I think you can care too little. I think that also exists.
Jonathan Leeman:
going to go there in a second.
Mark Dever:
Okay.
Jonathan Leeman:
I want advice, practical advice for the, I realize this.
Mark Dever:
I think it’s more common to care too much.
Jonathan Leeman:
It feels, oh, it’s oppressive. I hate it, but I can’t seem to be done with it. What do I do? Is there hope for me?
Mark Dever:
Maybe. Basically your quiet times have to become more important to you. You know, your time in God’s Word, your thoughts being dominated by Him and what He thinks of you, that somehow has to grow. It has to crowd out.
Jonathan Leeman:
You need a bigger God.
Mark Dever:
Not just in your theory, but like in the emotional space in your brain. I mean, you need to care more about what He thinks about what you’re doing and saying. That needs to be a more immediate present reality to you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now, Mark, atheistic or agnostic Mark Dever, I’m guessing, scored low on the caring what people think of me scale. Comparatively low.
Mark Dever:
You know, I’m sure there were certain people who probably cared a ton. But there’s probably a bit of an elite crowd. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so then you already, let’s just say you were already somewhat good at it.
Mark Dever:
Good at what?
Jonathan Leeman:
Not caring about what people think of you.
Mark Dever:
Well, some people, I think it was probably very poor, not caring what other people thought of me. I think it just depends. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I guess here’s what I’m trying to get at. So you step in.
Mark Dever:
So let’s say you have a really confident musician or really confident athlete.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
They may not care what a lot of the people in the pews or a lot of the people in the chairs, a lot of people in the stands think about a lot of things they do.
Jonathan Leeman:
They care about the teacher.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. You look at the teacher, the master, the coach, then they’re going to care a ton.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
It’s more like that I think. An interesting thing about social media is it seems to hardwire our brains into how many followers do I have, you know, on Instagram or on Twitter or whatever.
Jonathan Leeman:
And that makes it worse.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. It exploits that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Back to the help that you want to give to the pastor who struggles with this.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
How? What do I do now? This is the press of me, I’m the senior pastor, I feel it every Sunday. I can see it messing up what I say in elders’ meetings, yada, yada, yada. What do I do?
Mark Dever:
I think you’d have to know the individual better, but I would take a walk with him, ask some questions, listen, and then just start talking about the gospel and maybe try to find some good things for him to read and meditate on for him to sort of suck on with his mental mouth.
To appreciate who the Lord is and what he’s done and his searching examination of us. That’s… Yes, somehow that has to have the gravity of that has to pull our eyes more to that.
And I look at what would help provoke that in a brother. You know, do we use A .W. Tozer’s knowledge of the Holy or J .I. Packer’s Knowing God or Stephen Charnock’s The Existence and Attributes of God or you know, what’s going to be a useful thing that might help pull his mind over there? What makes him feel awe?
I want to get down beneath the mere opinion and reaction to opinion. I want to get to more bedrock continental shifting sort of what’s the plate? The tectonic plate in somebody’s life emotionally.
That’s where I want to see, does God have that kind of role in your life? If not, what can we do to more and more encourage and cultivate that?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I like the word, you should use the word gravity. I like that. You can’t argue with gravity. You know, a little asteroid in space caught between the moon and the Earth is going to have greater gravity.
It’s just, it’s going to inevitably feel that. And that’s precisely what you’re describing. Okay. Well, let’s talk about the person who cares too little.
So I’m thinking of a couple of passages of scripture. Paul’s statement to Timothy, let no one despise you for your youth but set an example. And then he says, practice these things, immerse yourself in them so that all may see your progress.
So Timothy has to be somewhat concerned with what people are seeing in his life. Or I think of Paul defending his reputation. I consider I’m not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.
Even if I’m unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge. Indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. So Paul gives some attention to how he’s regarded.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I mean, if you know, when he, when he writes to the Corinthians, if they think he’s just there to take advantage of them, he knows that that’s not going to help them listen to him. So he explains his position.
He explains why, why he didn’t come when he said he was going to, you know, there, he definitely is concerned about what the various members of churches he’s been to before when he writes them, what they think of him. But I think that’s an appropriate concern.
Jonathan Leeman:
The difference between appropriate and inappropriate is
Mark Dever:
Appropriate is going to be, it’s, it’s accurate and it doesn’t lead to exaggerated esteem. So when Paul writes to the Thessalonians, he writes about, you know how I lived among you.
But the things he’s saying are not that he was sinless, but he’s saying in a few particular ways he was a good example. He worked hard, you know, he worked for their good, things that you can do in exemplary fashion, even if you’re not perfect.
Jonathan Leeman:
Fair to say appropriate means I genuinely cared about you and what’s for your good and your ability to hear me preach over and against, I care what you think of me for my sake.
Mark Dever:
Right, exactly. Yeah, that’s well said. I’m not trying to position myself to win some popularity contest from you. I am trying to help you see as a doctor, you should listen to what I say for your soul.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. There’s a sense of I’m trying to remove stumbling blocks.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I’m trying to help you.
Jonathan Leeman:
Other ways that we can care too little? I can’t think of anything, but…
Mark Dever:
I mean, if you are insensitive to good feedback, if people are giving you wisdom, then it would actually help you to listen to.
You know, I had one friend that used to look at how I dressed and say, you know, Mark, a little of you man can be helpful. You know what he means? So yeah, I think I don’t want to be clueless. I’m not trying to be unaware.
Like I’m dwelling as a mental monk, you know, in an island removed. I would like to be aware and yet only weigh it appropriately.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. There can be a kind of, I guess, selfishness, iand ndifference to other people.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, sure.
Jonathan Leeman:
A lack of love.
Mark Dever:
Well, all the way over to being the kind of sociopath. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And love looks for ways to accommodate and see where people are at.
Mark Dever:
Well, you know, a relationship is two ways. And so if I’m trying to edify you as an elder, as a pastor, I want to make sure that what I’m saying is true, but as much as possible.
I also want to make sure that I’m not putting a stumbling block in your way so you can’t hear it. So part of me needs to know how you’re responding to me. Now, I don’t have to know that that means every sermon I preach, you just think, it was the greatest thing in the world.
I mean, there are sort of sophomoric ways, very introductory kind of temptations to pride that I think time in the ministry tends to just burn out of you because just nobody gets that.
You know, unless you’re in a very, very select group of preachers, your congregation’s never going to respond to you like every sermon you preach is a home run.
Jonathan Leeman:
Wives are helpful for this too.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, yeah. Wives can be very helpful to us.
Jonathan Leeman:
Last question, how do you pastor fellow staff members, deacons, and lay elders? So you have more staff than some people do, but I’m trying to put this in a position of maybe I don’t have staff, maybe I just have deacons and other elders I’m working with. How do you pastor those around you as the lead guy? Who do you see struggling with this?
Mark Dever:
I think the fundamental work is just to draw their minds and eyes to God and the gospel. Keep them rejoicing in that. Help them to emotionally experience what they cognitively say they know about it being… the kind of weight that makes the thing sit upright in the water.
You know, it’s the ballast as much as you can through, through emotionally engaging times of singing, you know, for the beginning of the service, you know, just get them right, right headed.
And that will help the relationship with their wife, with their kids, with their friends at work in the church.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s all wonderful. I think that’s true. One other thing I see, see you do maybe a less exalted answer is punch and hug. I see you sometimes knock younger guys down a little bit, but then you hug them and help them not take themselves so seriously.
Mark Dever:
I sometimes say I hug hard so I can hit hard.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I think that’s a good fatherly thing.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
You do.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I don’t think the current generation is being well-served by the kind of everybody who gets an award stuff at school.
I think the self-esteem movement is just death. You know, I think if you can’t learn to hear in a group of eight interns, I appear to be the sixth-best writer. Well then. Why do you bother to use words and communicate with people? Why did God give you ears?
I mean, life is big and complicated. There’s a lot of stuff going on more than your writing skill compared to seven other guys in one person’s mind at a specific period in your life. So if that dominates quickly, that right there is a sign that spiritually something’s going on. And that is far more important than your ability to write.
So the ability to write a comment is just a way to expose a symptom of something deeper and the deeper things which you want to get at the ability to write.
Jonathan Leeman:
Sure. Brother, helpful comments, helpful wisdom. Thank you for your time.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
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A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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