On the Lord’s Supper – Nuts and Bolts, with Bobby Jamieson (Pastors Talk, Ep. 231)
What is the Lord’s Supper? On this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, and Bobby Jamieson flesh out the details of how a healthy church should participate in the ordinance of Communion. They help Christians consider how often, what time of day, and who should take the Lord’s Supper, as well as who should be serving it.
- What is the Lord’s Supper?
- When Should You Take the Lord’s Supper?
- How Should You Take the Lord’s Supper?
- Who Should Pass Out the Lord’s Supper?
- Who Should Take the Lord’s Supper?
Additional Resources
Mentioned Resource:
- On the Lord’s Supper (Pastors Talk, Ep. 73)
- On Preaching, the Supper, and the Unity of the Church (Pastors Talk, Ep. 110)
- On Why Is the Lord’s Supper So Important? (Pastors Talk, Ep. 174)
Related Resource:
- “Can We Celebrate Communion Online?” by Bobby Jamieson
- “How the Lord’s Supper Makes a Local Church” by Bobby Jamieson
- Understanding the Lord’s Supper by Bobby Jamieson
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
On the Lord’s Supper – Nuts and Bolts, With Bobby Jamieson
Jonathan Leeman
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever
It really is. I can tell that it looks and smells like him.
Jonathan Leeman
I’m here with that guy, Mark Dever, and also another CHBC pastor, Bobby Jamison.
Bobby Jamieson
But not Alberto. He’s not here.
Jonathan Leeman
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. Nine Marks exists to help pastors build healthy churches.
Today we’re going to talk about the nuts and bolts of the Lord’s Supper. Lots of super quick practical questions. If you want a more rigorous –
Mark Dever
How quick is super quick?
Jonathan Leeman
It depends on how long your answers are. That’s up to you, man. If you want a more rigorous theological conversation about it, check out episode 70. Do you want to pray right now?
Mark Dever
Sure. Lord, we thank you for your word. Thank you for revealing yourself to us. Give us wisdom as we think together in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Jonathan Leeman
Check out episode 73, 110.
Mark Dever
Not a lot of people check out that one.
Jonathan Leeman
And episode 174 of this podcast.
Jonathan Leeman
Now we’re just going to do… nuts and bolts guys. That’s the plan. And we’re going to do a little game here.
What is the Lord’s Supper?
Mark Dever
We tend to use like drink and bread.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, that’s good. Okay. That’s practical point.
Mark Dever
Well, the nuts thing, I didn’t get
Bobby Jamieson
You can get Mark to talk about why he’s such a big fan of people coming forward and bread.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, that’s one of the things I want to ask. Hey, you guys both told me you want to do this quickly. You’re not making this easy.
Mark Dever
What are you talking about? Bobby and I live for these conversations.
When Should You Take the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
I want to give you, I want you to give me a one to five, five being like, I’m convinced I’m right. One being like, yeah,I don’t really know, but this is what we do on a number of these questions. So for instance, how frequently should a church take it?
Mark Dever
I’m like a two.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, what’s your answer to the question first?
Mark Dever
Oh, I’m like a one.
Jonathan Leeman
No, no, no, no, no. Just answer the question. I’m sorry. That was very confusing of me. I can see that now.
Mark Dever
More than once.
Jonathan Leeman
Just answer this question. How frequently?
Mark Dever
Regularly. There’s no stated.
Jonathan Leeman
Bobby?
Bobby Jamieson
Is this a theory or a practice question?
Jonathan Leeman
This is a practice question.
Bobby Jamieson
So get Mark to say how often we have the Lord’s Supper.
Mark Dever
Oh, monthly. That’s what they were doing when it came. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
But I’m not, you’re not going to put any shouldness in that.
Mark Dever
I don’t think we need to move to annually or quarterly or weekly or daily.
Jonathan Leeman
Bobby.
Bobby Jamieson
I mean, I feel some pressure toward weekly observance from Acts 20 verse seven where they gathered together on the first day of the week to break bread.
Jonathan Leeman
So if you’re planning a church, that’s what you’re doing.
Bobby Jamieson
No, no, I’m just saying some pressure. I’m not convinced that’s the case. I think there could be some evidence for it.
It doesn’t get me over the line to think this is a normative practice. So ultimately I’m with Mark. Although I just feel a little more pressure.
Mark Dever
But if you’ve got brothers in your church, Bobby, who want to do it daily, are you going to object?
Bobby Jamieson
Yes in the sense…
Mark Dever
Weekly, are you going to object?
Bobby Jamieson
No, no objection to weekly.
Mark Dever
Okay. Quarterly, are you going to object?
Bobby Jamieson
Not object principally, but…
Mark Dever
Annually?
Bobby Jamieson
Well, again, is it a principally objection or kind of pastoral utility objection?
Mark Dever
Pastoral utility.
Bobby Jamieson
Pastoral utility. I probably want it more than quarterly, more than yearly. So pragmatically, I’m kind of between monthly and weekly. I’m fine with either.
Jonathan Leeman
When Cheverly Baptist planted, we decided to do it weekly. And I have a slight biblical preference for that.
Meaning I don’t think it’s hard and fast in the scripture, but I think there’s the suggestion of that. And also frankly…
Mark Dever
From Acts 20?
What Time Should a Church Take the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah- some of the theological arguments you’ve made- Bobby- about the supper being what constitutes the church as a church.
I do like it, but yeah, I’m going leave that at a 2 and that preference. For churches who have evening services, should they only take it in the evenings?
Mark Dever
Well, I think your question more be should they only take in the mornings. So for, for our, for CHBC..
Jonathan Leeman
You take it primarily in the evenings.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
But another friend of ours who wrote some of these questions only takes it in the evenings.
Mark Dever
Yeah. The motivation in most churches, I think in America these days to take in the evening would be fewer people wrongly taking.
The motivation to do it in the morning is if you do it in the evening, you’ll have fewer people taking. So it’s, you know, there’s, it depends on what you’re trying to achieve.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t there some tension, Mark, between your morning being the one service that you require.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
And you use that verb. And is the main gathering of the church. And that’s not the primary place you take the supper.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
But you don’t feel compelled to change that.
Mark Dever
No, because we do it three times a year in the morning and we expect people to be there in the evening.
Jonathan Leeman
Bobby, evening, morning, it’s your second service, using the second service primarily for. I do feel that tension. It’s partly relieved by having those three observances in the morning.
Mark Dever
The majority of our members are there in the evening.
How Should You Take the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Should a church use grape juice or wine?
Mark Dever
I don’t have a should on that. Do you, Bobby?
Bobby Jamieson
I don’t have a should… I mean, I do think widespread practice of non-alcoholic grape juice is in danger of losing something of the kind of biblical symbolism of wine. I appreciate the pragmatic reasons for that.
Yeah, I don’t feel convicted. If I go to a church and they’re using grape juice, or, you know, do I need to write a memo to our elders about not, you know, I don’t feel convicted about it.
Jonathan Leeman
Again, if you were planning a church, would you go to wine? It sounds like there’s a slight preference there.
Bobby Jamieson
Depends a little bit on the context, maybe a slight preference.
Jonathan Leeman
If you’re in England.
Bobby Jamieson
Maybe.
Jonathan Leeman
Real question, can a church use grape soda or fruit punch?
Mark Dever
Are they able? Yes, you mean may.
Jonathan Leeman
Yes, thank you. Are they able?
Mark Dever
They are able, should they? Morally.
Jonathan Leeman
Can they morally? Are they allowed to?
Mark Dever
Well, you know, Christians have a long history of can we do it this way? Can we do it that way? Can we do baptisms indoors? Can we do them in a baptistry?
Does it have to be outside in living water? You know, so can we sing humanly composed hymns? Can we, you know, so, okay, can we use grape juice? Yes. We can use non-fermented.
Jonathan Leeman
Grape soda.
Mark Dever
I understand that, I’m getting there. So from wine, which we presume was an older usage, there were Christians at one point who were having this exact same conversation wondering if they could do what we currently have been doing in America for over a century.
And they clearly, generally resolved the issue that they could, and I think they correctly resolved that. So is there a distinction to be made between grape juice,
Jonathan Leeman
And grape soda.
Mark Dever
And grape soda. And what was the other thing you said besides grape soda?
Jonathan Leeman
Fruit punch.
Mark Dever
Fruit punch. I mean, I think in a pinch you could use punch, but I would –
Bobby Jamieson
Punch in a pinch.
Mark Dever
But I would be – I would be loathe to take a beverage that may be associated with some lightness and frivolity and not, yeah, I think grape juice has an established place, at least in our sort of lower nonconformist churches like Baptists.
Bobby Jamieson
I have a tough time imagining in an American or Western context how grape juice or wine, neither would be available. We’re only down to punch. It’s our only hope for celebrating the Lord’s Supper.
Mark Dever
No, I think this is just Alex coming up with questions.
Bobby Jamieson
I understand. I’m trying to perhaps treat the question more seriously than it deserves. Sorry, Alex.
Should Churches Always Provide a Non-Alcoholic Option for Communion?
Jonathan Leeman
Should churches, if they provide wine or use wine, should they provide an alternative for those who would struggle with alcohol addiction?
Mark Dever
I think they should.
Bobby Jamieson
Yeah, I would not have any objection to doing that. I think it would be an appropriate accommodation.
Can the Church Use Wafers In the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Is a wafer bread? I mean, really? Cause it sure don’t taste like it.
Bobby Jamieson
Well, there’s a, there’s a sort of broader question here, which would be something like, does a meal intended to satisfy the hunger…? Well, cause if not a wafer, well, then we’re just down to like, you know,
Jonathan Leeman
Okay, we can start broader more broadly.
Bobby Jamieson
Well, I don’t know that the wafer objection has teeth if we’re not required to have a filling meal
Jonathan Leeman
Let’s say we’re not required to have a filling meal. Let’s assume that for the moment,
Bobby Jamieson
Then we’re just imprudence territory, bread-like substance.
Mark Dever
Yeah. I’m with Bobby. Some kind of bread like substance. But if you use wheat thins, I’m going to more likely object. It can’t be a well -known brand.
Bobby Jamieson
And you mean because of a kind of commercial snack association.
Mark Dever
It needs to be something more vague.
Jonathan Leeman
Certainly not cheetos or Doritos.
Mark Dever
Right.
Bobby Jamieson
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
But these vague little pieces, white round things that are
Mark Dever
So I think, I think one thing we’re all assuming in our comments, half humorous, half serious is there is something to validate the elements in our intention and our way that we understand they will be perceived. So something, some part of the appropriateness of the elements is in how they will be perceived.
Bobby Jamieson
And maybe you could say something like there’s a discernment or a judgment call involved in just what type of physical flexibility there would be and actually honoring the intent of doing what Jesus commanded.
Jonathan Leeman
Well see, that’s the thing.
Bobby Jamieson
And trying to, like Mark said, not have a layer of cultural association that’s potentially distracting, offensive… Yeah, it might have commercial associations or who, you know, that I think in a sense, keeping that mearness so that it’s not imposing something.
Jonathan Leeman
I have to say when I ..
Mark Dever
Pop rocks would not be good.
Jonathan Leeman
I think we all agree on that. I have to say though, brother, when you’ll often use the language when you do the supper, something about a foreshadow of the heavenly feast. I always think to myself…
Mark Dever
A very dim foreshadow.
Jonathan Leeman
That’s a terrible foreshadow.
Mark Dever
Brother but think about what a mere shadow is of Jesus’ own death. He’s the one who set it up. He said, remember my death by this. You can have a three-course meal with turkey and stuffing, and yet compared to the sacrifice of Christ, it’s gonna be a thin shadow.
Does the Church Need to Use a Loaf in the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, well said. Young guy in the church comes to you and says, but Pastor, 1 Corinthians 10:17 says “because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body, for we share the one loaf”.
Mark Dever
Oh, this sounds like you. I mean, 20 years ago.
Jonathan Leeman
We really need to be breaking an actual loaf of bread. That’s what it says. How do you respond?
Mark Dever
I think we’re again, deeply in this territory.
Jonathan Leeman
The Bible doesn’t mean that. I don’t think that’s…
Bobby Jamieson
If you have a… Call it a church of a hundred people. Yeah. You’re going to have a tough time getting a loaf big enough. You know, do you…
Mark Dever
Maybe a long Italian sub.
Bobby Jamieson
Bake some massive loaf and bring it in front of the church and rip it open. I mean, it just…
Mark Dever
French bread can be like three feet long.
Jonathan Leeman
Paul isn’t meaning to be literal.
Bobby Jamieson
We don’t know how big the church in Corinth was.
Mark Dever
Right. Or how big the loaf was.
Bobby Jamieson
We don’t know how big the loaf was.
Mark Dever
Because even if there are six loaves, they may have been all made together. You’re coming to the symbolism.
Bobby Jamieson
I think Paul’s theological rationale for sharing in the common element does not depend on there being literally one object. You know, sharing in one cup.
Does that mean they all had to have a common cup? Does it mean there could be one thing that was poured out for others? I mean, it’s just,
Mark Dever
You just get into kind of getting more of his questions coming up.
Who Should Pass Out The Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Should you pass the elements out or make people come forward?
Bobby Jamieson
Oh, Mark gets to answer this one.
Mark Dever
I think it’s appropriate to have the people remain seated and to carry the elements out to them because the associations generally with coming forward are that there’s something to be gotten up here and I am moving to do it. And I think.
Mark Dever
Jesus kind of a Roman Catholic Catholic things you are trying to avoid?
Mark Dever
Yeah. Yeah. And there is in Protestantism, traditionally in the reformed world, there is a long history of the table and Dutch reformed churches can come up 12 at a time sitting at the table. You have the image of the Last Supper where the elements are passed to the individuals.
And it says, if our table, you know, stretched out to several hundred people, and there’s also the theological appropriateness of us doing nothing to, to get the grace or obtain it. It is literally brought to us.
Jonathan Leeman
I like that. How confident are you of your answer one to five?
Mark Dever
Well, I’m confident, five, but because I am being more prescriptive than scripture. When we visit Mike McKinley’s church and he tells of the wonderful pastoral usage they’ve had of coming forward, I want to be deferential and I want to, you know, those elders will give account for that.
And you know, it may be that with the mix of backgrounds they have that communicates more good things than it stirs up problems.
Bobby Jamieson
So Mark, you’re seeing this as it is not legislated in scripture.
Mark Dever
No.
Bobby Jamieson
You’re just trying to think how to best embody or accomplish the various ends of the Lord’s Supper. How to represent that.
Mark Dever
And I’m being mindful of the way reformed churches have historically done it.
Bobby Jamieson
Okay. Yeah.
Should an Elder Lead the Service of the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
I want just a yes or no. Must an elder lead the service?
Mark Dever
No.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. You agree?
Bobby Jamieson
Yep. Yep.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. Let me do it again. Should an elder lead the service?
Mark Dever
Yes.
Bobby Jamieson
Normally, yeah, if you have them.
Jonathan Leeman
Why the distinction between must and should in your minds?
Mark Dever
It’s a long time in English that’s been useful. Must means it has to be that way. Should means it’s preferable.
Jonathan Leeman
Why is it not a must? Why is it a should?
Bobby Jamieson
Well, theologically to rule out the must, it’s an ordinance celebrated by the whole congregation. We see in scripture gatherings of Christians called churches before they have elders.
Mark Dever
Titus chapter one.
Bobby Jamieson
Titus 1:5, Acts 14:23, they appointed elders in every church. So they existed as a church before they had elders, which presumably meant they were celebrating the Lord’s Supper before they had elders. So we just don’t know what that looked like.
Jonathan Leeman
By virtue of the priesthood of all believers, you have, I would say you must affirm that members can on occasion, if required, pass it out.
Mark Dever
Or baptize.
Bobby Jamieson
So maybe it’s an instance where a group of believers have banded together and they don’t yet have a single elder. They should be celebrating the Lord’s Supper. They should also be praying to get elders raised up, but I think I don’t think that should hinder them at all.
And actually I would say if you’ve covenanted together and you’re calling yourself a church, you really should be celebrating the Lord’s Supper and not viewing your lack of a pastor or elders as prohibiting them.
Jonathan Leeman
If you look at some of Luther’s early writings, you see him affirming this, that any believer over and against the Pope should be able to do it.
Mark Dever
Thank you, Dr. Leeman.
Should Deacons Pass Out The Lords Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Who should pass it out then? Should it be deacons or anyone in the church?
Mark Dever
I think scripture says absolutely nothing about it. So we’re back into prudence. I think any member in good standing.
Jonathan Leeman
Can women pass it out?
Mark Dever
You mean should they? They’re very able.
Jonathan Leeman
I’m in the fifth grade sometimes when I walk into this room, it’s like back to fifth grade (laughter)
Bobby Jamieson
A former church secretary of ours, a slightly different age range, but a former church secretary of ours describing Mark when I was first getting to know him, she said, “you know, Mark’s like an eighth grader who just woke up and discovered he was in charge of everything. (Laughter)
Mark Dever
Little did understand the limitations of my abilities.
Jonathan Leeman
I like it. May a woman pass it out.
Mark Dever
Yes.
Bobby Jamieson
No reason not to.
Jonathan Leeman
And that’s your practice.
Mark Dever
Yeah. We have members of the church selected by our deacon of ordinances.
Who Should Take the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah. Should you fence the table every time and how do you fence it?
Bobby Jamieson
We do sort of an advance statement of the terms of communion, typically at the beginning of the service. And then whichever elder is officiating will kind of formally fence the table.
And I do think, I’m not sure I would say that’s required, but I certainly think it’s prudent given the diversity of practice among churches on this. And just as kind of a service and a kindness to help inform people’s consciences, since there are sort of different local customs as it were, if you are a visitor.
Mark Dever
I would say that’s far clearer than that you remain seated or that you do it once a month.
Bobby Jamieson
I think if you say nothing at all, it becomes difficult to see how this is an ordinance that’s actually disciplined, that you can be welcomed to or excluded from. And not to say that churches can’t have other ways of doing it, but it seems a very helpful thing to actually publicly announce for everybody who’s sitting there thinking, oh, do I get to participate in this?
Mark Dever
The basic phrase we use is “a baptized member of an evangelical church in good standing where you hear the same gospel preached there that you’ve heard preached here. You’re allowed to take the Lord’s supper there. You’re welcome to take the Lord’s supper with us here tonight”.
Jonathan Leeman
So five elements: baptized number one, member two, good standing, not under discipline, three.
Mark Dever
Evangelical church.
Jonathan Leeman
Evangelical church.
Mark Dever
You hear the same gospel.
Jonathan Leeman
I guess that’s four.
Mark Dever
And you’re allowed to take the Lord’s supper there, which is good standing. Which four.
Jonathan Leeman
So those four elements you asked.
Mark Dever
But now then, unlike Spurgeon’s Church, it’s self-patrolled.
Bobby Jamieson
Meaning it’s Spurgeon’s Church that had to get a prior token of admission.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
Should a Pastor Intervene on Who Takes the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
What should you do if you see someone you know is not a Christian or who has been excommunicated? The elements are going out. You know that guy’s a non-Christian. You know that woman’s been excommunicated.
Mark Dever
And is unrepentant?
Jonathan Leeman
And is unrepentant. You see them taking it, what do you do?
Mark Dever
Well, I, as the minister, have announced beforehand who should and should not take.
Jonathan Leeman
Yes, you’ve already fenced the table.
Mark Dever
So I think the responsibility is now in their own head.
Jonathan Leeman
So you do nothing.
Mark Dever
Well, who is ‘you’? Is ‘you’ the person who’s next to them? Is you the person passing out? Is you the pastor saying that? You realize it’s three different locations.
Jonathan Leeman
Of course.
Mark Dever
I’m the parent of the 12-year-old who’s about to reach for it.
Jonathan Leeman
Well, I’m going to get to the kid in a second. No, you as the pastor and then you as the person passing out.
Mark Dever
As the pastor, my responsibility as minister is to be able to declare.
Bobby Jamieson
Mark, if you happen to notice, as a pastor, you happen to notice that… will you go have a follow-up conversation after the fact?
Mark Dever
Probably, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman
And if you’re the person passing out, do you not pass it to them?
Mark Dever
If they’re literally the only person in the row, and I know it’s a case of that, I probably wouldn’t pass the plate to them. I just wouldn’t pass the plate to them. But if they’re sitting in the midst of five people and they reach for it, I’m not going to dive and grab it out of their hands.
Jonathan Leeman
Right.
Bobby Jamieson
Nothing to add.
Can You Take the Lord’s Supper if You are Unbaptized?
Jonathan Leeman
What about the parents who let their unbaptized, non-member children take it? Do you say something? Do you talk to them about it?
Bobby Jamieson
Yes, do and have.
Mark Dever
Same here.
Is Prayer Necessary When Taking the Lord’s Supper?
Jonathan Leeman
Is prayer a necessary element of taking the Lord’s Supper? I’m just thinking about what you say, these elements otherwise common have been set aside for holy use by prayer. So is it a necessary element?
Bobby Jamieson
I mean, I think so in the sense that it’s a meal, at least in a symbolic sense. We should at least be thanking God for the meal, but even more so just given that this is a covenant renewal meal and it’s a sign of the new covenant.
Mark Dever
It’s remembrance of Christ’s death for us.
Bobby Jamieson
Yeah, that we have all the more reason to give thanks to God for it.. And I’m trying to remember, I mean, when Paul says the cup of blessing that we bless, I think that blessing is a prayer of thanksgiving to God. So I think in…
Mark Dever
Eucharisto.
Bobby Jamieson
Yeah, exactly.
Jonathan Leeman
I don’t want a long…
Bobby Jamieson
It’s … there, but it is one of the places it’s El Cristia. I can’t remember the text.
Jonathan Leeman
I’m going to read a couple of verses. I’m setting up the next question here. I don’t want long exegetical discussion of this. I want a very brief answer.
And they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching the fellowship to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Breaking of bread, referring to the Lord’s Supper there?
Bobby Jamieson
Yes.
Mark Dever
Uncertain.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. And day by day, verse 46, and day by day attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts. Supper or meal?
Bobby Jamieson
Meal, not supper.
Mark Dever
Meal.
Jonathan Leeman
Okay. So here’s the question. On a scale of one to five, how certain are you that Spurgeon was wrong to allow people to take the Lord’s Supper in small groups or in their homes? Five like, I’m certain he was wrong. Five or one, nah, don’t really know.
Mark Dever
I would need to read of his practice and his explanation of it. I’ve not heard that.
Bobby Jamieson
Assuming that’s accurate, meaning this is not a whole church gathering. These are sub -gatherings of the
Jonathan Leeman
I believe it’s in Jeff Chang’s book, no?
Bobby Jamieson
I think I’m a five in that I understand the gathering to be the whole church gathering. An essential part. The whole church gathering to be the only authorized body.
Jonathan Leeman
So Spurgeon aside, you’re happy to say that, Mark?
Mark Dever
Well, no, including Spurgeon. I agree with Bobby entirely on that.
Jonathan Leeman
No, that’s what I mean. You should not be taking it in your home.
Mark Dever
Or do you three retreat or do women’s retreat or at a wedding ceremony.
Jonathan Leeman
Chevrolet Baptist Church passes out both at the same time. We have these nice little trays that has the cups around and then we receive them together and then we take them one after the other.
Are we wrong? Is that fine to do? Cause that’s different than Capitol Hill.
Mark Dever
Certainly saves time.
Jonathan Leeman
It does that.
Bobby Jamieson
No objection.
Jonathan Leeman
Now with both, another place we depart from Capitol Hill Baptist is we don’t take the bread individually and the cup altogether. We take both altogether, first the bread, then the cup.
And I have a mild theological preference for that. Am I right? Am I wrong? Is it indifferent? What do you got? Cause you guys do it differently.
Mark Dever
I’m either indifferent to agreeing with you.
Bobby Jamieson
I’m probably agreeing with you and I’d have it as a preference, not as like an absolute must. But I think having a decidedly corporate symbolism to both, I think is helpful.
Jonathan Leeman
The reason I have the preference is your definition that you give. When you say baptism is the one becoming many and the supper is the many becoming one.
Mark Dever
Yeah, pastorally, this was the practice here when I got here and like the Burkean I am, I just changed as little as I possibly could. But in my own mind, the way I thought through the individual part was we’ve confessed our sins.
We’ve had to do individual self -examination, confess our sins. So that’s kind of us bringing ourselves to the table anyway.
Bobby Jamieson
And you’re still all taking it at the same time in a sense.
Mark Dever
That’s right.
Bobby Jamieson
The same couple of minute window, just not the precise moment.
Mark Dever
Yeah.
Taking the Elements Separately
Jonathan Leeman
Intention, what is it and is it a good or bad idea?
Mark Dever
It means not receiving the two things separately, but having the bread dipped in the cup and then the bread put on your tongue by the priest.
Jonathan Leeman
Good idea or bad idea?
Bobby Jamieson
Very bad idea.
Mark Dever
Unbiblical.
Jonathan Leeman
Bad idea? Come on.
Mark Dever
It saves time, so thoughtless evangelicals love it.
Bobby Jamieson
Two different verbs, take and eat and also drink. So there’s different symbolism to both. We should be receiving both of those elements. It should be every participating believer, you know, eating the bread.
Mark Dever
Behind it is the superstitious idea that this blood could be spilled and it’s the blood of Christ has been transubstantiated into the blood of Christ and we can’t risk that in the lady’s hands. There’s just all kinds of bad stuff behind that.
Should Churches Turn the Lord’s Supper into a Meal?
Jonathan Leeman
Two more questions I want to do really fast though. One, turning the supper into an actual meal.
Bobby Jamieson
Not necessary, but kind of a good idea. Wish more churches did it.
Mark Dever
We did that. In our church, we started up in New England in the 1980s. We would have it as the first part of a full meal.
We may have tried at the end as well. On the whole, it just ended up not working well enough with families and we finally went back to the normal practice.
Jonathan Leeman
Cheverly Baptist, the elders went on a retreat before we planted. The elders all decided, hey, let’s do this. This seems fun.
And then we asked our wives and the wives were like, uh, have you thought about this, this, this, this, and this? And we were like, okay, maybe not.
Mark Dever
Well, we got further than that. I mean, we actually, in Meadows, we actually did it, I don’t know, two, three, four times and then we just decided like, oh, you can’t do this.
Jonathan Leeman
Last question. If a pastor inherits practices different than the ones you guys have sort of laid out, how high of a priority would changing those things be?
Mark Dever
Completely depends. If he wears a special surplus every time he gives the Lord’s Supper, I change that practice. It just depends on what the practice is.
Bobby Jamieson
And probably some of the most, I mean, obviously you don’t know exactly when and where you’ll step on a landmine, but some of the most contentious stuff is gonna be around the terms of admission. It’s gonna be around fencing the table.
Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, right.
Bobby Jamieson
And that’s where I think you wanna be as explicit upfront about what your understanding would be. And just recognize that that’s somebody being admitted or not, that’s somebody participating or not.
So it gets very personal. So I think those are the ones that have more gravity than a lot of these mere prudential, you know, prudential.
Mark Dever
I remember as a teenager going to church at First Baptist Church in Madisonville, Kentucky, and noting the elaborate flag-folding ceremony of the big white sheet over the table. And as a new Christian being awed by the symbolism of maybe a shroud over a body.
And so I asked the pastor, Dr. Purdy, about it and he just gently laughed and he said, “Mark, I think that comes from before there was air conditioning and the windows were open and flies would come in”. So he very gently helped to de-ontologize or devotionalize every single little practice around the Lord’s Day.
Jonathan Leeman
That’s good.
Mark Dever
Yeah, it was helpful early on. Good lesson.
Jonathan Leeman
Guys, thanks for your time.
Mark Dever
Thank you.
Jonathan Leeman
Hope it’s been a helpful conversation for listeners.
Bobby Jamieson
Thanks, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman
Thank you, brother.
Pastors Talk
A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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