On When May a Congregation Vote Against its Elders, with Jamie Dunlop (Pastors Talk, Ep. 258)
Should a congregation vote against its elders? On this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about when and how you should vote against the elders in your church. They flesh out different reasons a member may vote against elders when it comes to accepting another member’s resignation or when it comes to pastor selection. They finish by discussing what matters elders should bring before the congregation for voting.
- When Should A Member Vote Against Its Elders?
- Voting Against Elders on Matters of Church Membership
- Voting Against Elders on Matters of Pastor Selection
- What Issues Should Elders Bring Before the Congregation?
Related Resources:
Books: Authority by Jonathan Leeman, Don’t Fire Your Church Members: The Case For Congregationalism by Jonathan Leeman, Leading One Another by Bobby Jamieson
Podcast: On the Use and Abuse of Authority (Pastors Talk, Ep. 9), On Authority (Pastors Talk, Ep. 244)
Journal: Authority: God’s Good and Dangerous Gift
Articles: When May a Congregation Vote Against its Elders? by Jamie Dunlop, Class V: Church Government by Jamie Dunlop, Mailbag #57: Pastors’ Limited Authority; Nominating Elders Who Will Move Soon by Jonathan Leeman, Church Members Must Watch Their Elders’ Life & Doctrine by Erik Raymond
Subscribe and listen to this episode on Spotify and Apple Podcast
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
Yep, it is. I can promise.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s Mark Dever. Once again, here for Pastors Talk.
Mark Dever:
Predictable.
Jonathan Leeman:
What?
Mark Dever:
Predictable.
Jonathan Leeman:
Predictable. That’s right. We exist to help build healthy churches. Learn more at 9Marks.org. Or if you’re looking for ways to give and help support this ministry, you can also learn that at 9Marks.org. And with us today, we have a special guest, Jamie Dunlop.
Mark Dever:
Yay.
Jamie Dunlop:
Good to be with you.
Jonathan Leeman:
The associate pastor at Capitol Baptist, author most recently…
Mark Dever:
A book about us, Jonathan.
Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy
Jonathan Leeman:
He’s written a number of books, most recently this one called Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy. So, Jamie, Mark has heard me tell this story a couple of times. I’m passing out books at my church’s small group and like, “Hey, anybody want this? Anybody want that?”
And then I hold up yours, Love the One Who Drives You Crazy. And I haven’t said what it’s about yet. And immediately my wife’s hand shoots up. Seriously, honey.
Jamie Dunlop:
Sweetie. Yes. Anything we should talk about offline?
Jonathan Leeman:
I know. It’s about the church. So not husbands.
Jamie Dunlop:
Eight Truths for Pursuing Unity in Your Church.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Why did you write that book?
Jamie Dunlop:
I wrote the book because when Mark and I did The Compelling Community, I think it did a good job of painting a vision for a church made of natural enemies, Jew and Gentile, but didn’t do a particularly good job of getting practical as to what that looks like. And I wrote the book because I think that there are many churches today that because of cultural, political, social issues are beginning to be torn into pieces. And part of that is because people don’t understand what the church really is supposed to look like, which is people who are united on Christ and not Christ and those other things.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Mark, you interviewed him, didn’t you?
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
When Should A Member Vote Against Its Elders?
Jonathan Leeman:
So go listen to that podcast if you want to learn more. Today, our topic, however, is when and perhaps more importantly why a member should vote no at a members meeting. Now, quick caveat, this is really an in-house conversation for anybody like us who believes in congregationalism or is an elder-led congregationalist.
Now, 9Marks and our audience is broader than just that. But this is a crucial conversation for those within that particular denominational or rather polity lane.
Mark Dever:
I think if Hebrews 13:17, obey your leaders and submit to them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Okay.
Jamie Dunlop:
And so this is a useful conversation if you’re in an elder rule church, maybe a Presbyterian church or Bible church, and you’ve always looked at congregational Baptists, particularly elder-led Congregationalists, and you’ve thought, what do they do with Hebrews 13:17? Well, it’s a useful conversation for you as well.
Is Disagreeing With Your Elders Unbiblical?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s right. But Mark, would you say in light of Hebrews 13:17, you should absolutely never vote contrary to your elders?
Mark Dever:
I would not say that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. So we have some lane where sometimes you should, would. How do we figure out when…
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, Mark, doesn’t that contradict what that verse says?
Mark Dever:
I don’t think so because I think when it says obey your leaders, submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. It’s all with an eye to giving account to God.
So just like the apostles said to the Sanhedrin in Acts 5, we must obey God rather than man. If the elders, imperfect as they are, encourage you to do something that’s wrong, then you as a member, as a Christian, should obey God rather than your elders.
Jamie Dunlop:
But you’re going to say that regardless of a church’s polity.
Mark Dever:
Certainly. That’s right.
Jamie Dunlop:
If you’re in an Anglican church where you don’t have the opportunity to vote in a members meeting, you’re still going to say you cannot obey man rather than God. So it’s kind of the easy territory.
Mark Dever:
Oh, it’s the clear principle that we need to embrace.
Jamie Dunlop:
Yes, the clearest.
Mark Dever:
From Acts 5, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I think it’s easy to see that. If they’re asking you to sin, clearly we’re not going to do that. But a lot of the decisions in the life of the church are a little more nitty gritty.
And I’ll say, hey, let’s we should buy this parsonage. It’s to cost us two, three hundred, four hundred thousand dollars. And man, I think that’s a terrible decision. I think that’s going to hurt the church.
Mark Dever:
So this church almost split and it did split actually in its infancy over exactly that question. Do we buy another piece of property? Do we build another building elsewhere?
Jonathan Leeman:
Or this part that elders are asking me to excommunicate this person. And I don’t think we should. Right? So a lot of the decisions we have to make on a day-to-day basis aren’t necessarily going to be scripted by the Bible.
And I’m having to make judgment calls. Hence, I think the value, Lord willing, of this conversation. Guys, this is what I want to do.
Mark Dever:
Wait, so you’re trying to give us wisdom that the Bible doesn’t.
Jonathan Leeman:
I want to figure out how to exercise the Bible’s wisdom in the real-world situations we find ourselves in. How do we apply the Bible to these kinds of situations? Is that good?
Mark Dever:
Logical extension. Yeah, I’m with you.
Voting Against Elders on Matters of Church Membership
Jamie Dunlop:
What kind of issues are you going to take to the church, first of all? Color of the carpet?
Mark Dever:
Who comes into the church as a member, who goes out?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
So in and out of membership.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep.
A Church Should Be Involved in its Statement of Faith
Jamie Dunlop:
And then also officers who serve as an elder, who serve as a deacon. And your church’s statement of faith? Anything that you’re forming that or changing that, that should go to the church.
Mark Dever:
Church covenant.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
Agreed upon rules of the constitution.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep.
Mark Dever:
It’s helpful just for practical reasons to have your budget agreed by the people who’ll…
Jonathan Leeman:
Wait, budget? That’s not in the Bible.
Mark Dever:
No, but by people who will give it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Anything else? That’s kind of the general landscape.
Jamie Dunlop:
Yeah. Major financial decisions.
Can the Church Disagree With Elders About Church Recommendations?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep. Okay, so let me give you a number of scenarios and then maybe we can work some principles out of there. Okay, here’s scenario one. Elders of your church are recommending the transfer of Joe, he’s a member of your church, to another church, but that church is kind of squishy on the gospel.
And a member wants to know, “Hey, look, I think that church is squishy on the gospel, but the elders are still recommending it. And I know Joe is going there to flee accountability. I know him personally. He just, he wants to, should I vote with the elders or not?”
Jamie Dunlop:
Gosh, it depends on what you mean by squishy on the gospel.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Work that out for me. And I know Joe is going for bad reasons. He’s trying to flee accountability.
Jamie Dunlop:
Right. If what you mean by squishy in the gospel is just a very nice way of saying they deny the gospel with faith and practice.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s not what I mean. I just mean they’re, I just know, I just, they’re, you know, a prosperity light. So they get the gospel right technically, but…
Jamie Dunlop:
But they never talk about it?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, maybe they don’t talk about it much. Some moralisms. And also Joe is going because he just doesn’t like the meaningful members…
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, and once you need to separate those two issues out. So someone’s motives for leaving your church versus the kind of church they’re going to. So maybe backing up. This whole question is a live question in our church because our church covenant, and yours as well, Jonathan, says that when we leave this church, we will join ourselves to another church that believes the same gospel and teaches the same gospel that we do.
And so when someone resigns their membership, that is an essential referendum on the church they’re going to. If someone says, “I’m leaving this faithful church to go to a Mormon church,” well we can’t do that. We would have to excommunicate you if you did that.
If you left to go to a Roman Catholic church, if you left to go to a church that says they’re a gospel-preaching church but for example says that it’s perfectly fine for a man to be married to a man. So now they’re denying something that scripture says is very important. So that’s the principle here.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so you’re telling me as a member because again, the problem I’m trying to solve here is you’re speaking to members of different churches. The elders are recommending something and you’re advising this member out there, to vote against or vote with your elders. And you’re saying if it’s a gospel-preaching church, vote with the elders. If it’s not, don’t.
Jamie Dunlop:
Yes. And in your situation, I guess the question is if they are on paper at gospel preaching church, but they don’t really preach the gospel.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s what I’m saying.
Jamie Dunlop:
Then what do we do? And I would think in that situation…
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m not asking for the elders, I’m asking for the members. The elders are recommending it. I’m the member trying to decide whether or not to vote against or with the elders. That’s the problem.
Jamie Dunlop:
I think my advice to that person is you could either vote with the elders because you trust them or you should probably leave your church. Because if you don’t trust your elders on such a fundamental assessment, probably means that you need to find a church where you do trust the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
That seems a bit extreme. People make mistakes.
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, a mistake is different from what the elders have looked into and they have come to the conclusion that a church that does not preach the gospel is a fine church to go to.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
Once upon a time in the real world, we brought a resignation to the membership…
Jonathan Leeman:
There was a subtle critique there. Did you catch that?
Jamie Dunlop:
Yeah, I got that.
Jonathan Leeman:
We brought a resignation to the congregation that the elders were, I think, unanimously supporting to allow this person to go to a church that his grandmother had gone to, if I’m remembering correctly.
One of the members of the church didn’t vote against it, but instead, he just put his hand up and said, “I think that church doesn’t believe in the Trinity.” We were, I think I was the one from the elders bringing the recommendation for the resignations. I immediately thought, oh, that’s bad.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you tabled it. Yeah. I remember the evening.
Mark Dever:
I looked around the other elders and, you know, we should, we should look into this. And so said, thank you very much. We’re withdrawing our recommendation. We will look into it and get back to you. There was a good way that…
Jonathan Leeman:
But assuming you hadn’t done that, you would have told this guy to vote against the elders in light of… We’re talking about the Trinity here.
Mark Dever:
I think it would depend on how certain he was. If he’s certain or he’s true, then yes. But he should also know that his elders have understood that they wouldn’t recommend a resignation being allowed like that.
Jamie Dunlop:
And that’s to my point that if your elders knowingly encourage someone to… If your elders knowingly encourage the congregation to accept a resignation to a non-Trinitarian church, then you should not be trusting those elders anymore.
Mark Dever:
Or at least those elders need to be educated on that particular point. Which is not the Trinity, but it’s the importance of church membership and their act to allow resignation.
Jonathan Leeman:
Here’s scenario number two. Again, you’re talking to members of churches out there.
Mark Dever:
Just on your scenario number one, I’d tell the guy to trust the elders. If really it’s just all the facts you gave me, I’d tell him to trust the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
And bring the pressure to bear on the elders personally with the knowledge that he has.
Voting Against Elders on Matters of Pastor Selection
Jonathan Leeman:
Helpful. Scenario number two, and again, you’re talking to a member whose elders are now recommending hiring a pastor. But a member is saying to you, “Mark, Jamie, I’ve seen this guy online. He’s a jerk.
And I feel like he might be slipping theologically, deconstructing a little bit, moving in unhelpful ways. It’s not super concrete, but that’s the vibe I get. And he’s certainly a jerk. And now they want me to vote to hire this guy as one of our associate pastors.”
Jamie Dunlop:
And have you already presented these concerns to the elders?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes.
Jamie Dunlop:
And they said?
Jonathan Leeman:
We think you misunderstand. And so now I need to make a vote. We’ve had the conversations, they’re where they are, I’m where I am, do I vote with them or against them?
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, I think you’re trying to go back to the qualifications for an elder. You’re hiring a pastor, so that means you’re hiring an elder and you’re just working through those qualifications in 1 Timothy 3. Which qualifications are you most concerned about?
You’ve had the conversation with the elders. Their response to you is not, “Gosh, we didn’t see that.” Their response to you is, “You misunderstand what he’s doing online.”
Jonathan Leeman:
Mm-hmm. And none of us are perfect. So yeah, maybe sometimes his tone is a little severe, but…
Jamie Dunlop:
Yeah, so I would say I think in that situation you probably do trust the elders and vote for the guy. But if I’m those elders, I’m going to try to make broad latitude to make sure that people feel very comfortable voting against them. I’m not going to encourage those elders to try to strong-arm the vote by any means.
They want to protect the consciences of their members. Even if in individual counsel, I will tell that person if it’s a question of interpretation of matters that are rightly debatable, then you should trust the elders.
Mark Dever:
Which is why we sometimes use secret ballots.
Jamie Dunlop:
Yeah, because we want to encourage people to vote their conscience.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, you’re saying two things. Help me put them together. You said, vote with the elders, but then you said, vote your conscience.
Jamie Dunlop:
I think that my private counsel to an individual is very different from what I’m going to say as an elder to the whole congregation. I think if as an elder, I say to the whole congregation, “Now, you really should vote with us on this matter,” I feel like I, for all practical purposes, have just eviscerated the congregation’s responsibility in the matter.
Jonathan Leeman:
It needs to be a real decision.
Jamie Dunlop:
It needs to be a real decision. And elders, especially elders who are trusted, need to be very careful in how they steward that trust.
Mark Dever:
This is why with church discipline cases, even with the clearest ones, we try to give a level of information to the congregation as a whole so that they would have enough information to vote against our recommendation should they want to do that.
Jamie Dunlop:
We don’t hide the contrary information.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because that robs the decision of integrity for them.
Jamie Dunlop:
Yeah. And we don’t tell them, “Now, this really is a Hebrews 13:17 situation. You better vote with us.” Even if I might feel that way based on this podcast.
Mark Dever:
And you might individually counsel someone that way, knowing them and their spiritual life if you were talking to them privately.
Jonathan Leeman:
So Mark, for you same answer on this one. “Look, I’ve been following this guy, I’ve been following him on Twitter, he’s a jerk and I think he might be deconstructing. It’s not really clear, but now the elders want me to vote for him.” You’re again saying –
Mark Dever:
Either your elders are whacked or they just don’t know something you know.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. If they’re whacked, you need to leave. You need to leave the church. And if they don’t know, it’s your fault for not telling them.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Jamie Dunlop:
But if they know information you don’t know –
Mark Dever:
That’s right. There could be other variations.
Jonathan Leeman:
So presuming you’ve kind of laid in front of them concrete reasons for why you’re not doing it, still maintaining that posture. Yeah, helpful. Okay. We’ve done a membership one. We’ve done an elder pastor qualification one.
Let me do one more case study. The elders are recommending a new budget and member Joe doesn’t like the budget. He thinks it cuts into the funding of a beloved missionary. In fact, they’re going to remove that missionary who they know is doing good work.
But we just have to make some hard decisions here and we want to put more money towards local outreach instead of this particular missionary. Should member Joe vote no or yes?
Jonathan Leeman:
They should vote yes.
Mark Dever:
With the elders. I would assume that’s the case.
What Issues Should Elders Bring Before the Congregation?
Jamie Dunlop:
And part of the reason is the specifics of what you just gave us. It’s about potentially the qualification of a missionary or potentially just the allocation between global and local priorities. If it’s the qualification of a missionary, those elders probably have information that individuals don’t have.
If it’s the allocation between global and local, that’s a tough decision. And I think it’s precisely the type of situation why we have elders to help lead the congregation in making hard judgments. There’s nothing gospel-denying in that budget.
There’s nothing scandalous in that budget. There’s nothing that seems like it’s going to bankrupt the church in that budget. So I think what you gave us is precisely the reason why we have elders to lead the congregation, to help the congregation exercise their responsibility wisely and biblically.
Jonathan Leeman:
Now, in all three of these case studies, you guys kind of lean towards yes and vote to trust the elders. Nonetheless, you maintain I do have a category of potentially saying no to the elders. Let’s say I’m at a principal then. When should I vote no? And is it more than just, you know, my Jiminy Cricket on my shoulder told me?
Mark Dever:
I could imagine that I had information about an individual who’s being put forward as an officer of the church that in my mind makes it…
Jonathan Leeman:
Disqualified.
Mark Dever:
Well, even if it’s not quite as strong as disqualified, it makes it inappropriate or imprudent even for them to serve right now. I can imagine voting against the elders in that situation. But I can also imagine even with that same information, deciding to vote with the elders to trust them. So I can imagine either of those is a live option for me.
Jamie Dunlop:
And so it probably depends on how much information you have. Some depend on how confident are you you have all the information. So it depends on how much you trust the elders that you’re there with.
Trust Your Elders
Jonathan Leeman:
What are the takeaway principles here?
Mark Dever:
Well, default trust the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
You painted out that particular scenario, but what are there principles at play here I can apply to any given number of scenarios, or situations?
Mark Dever:
Yes, default trust the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay.
Mark Dever:
Bring any reason you wouldn’t trust the elders to the elders. In other words, any reason you wouldn’t agree with them.
Jonathan Leeman:
So if I’m going to vote against the elders on any number of things, I have a certain moral responsibility to tell them ahead of time that I plan on doing that.
Jamie Dunlop:
Especially if you’re doing so based on critical information.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I was going to say, assuming the question lies over. Sometimes votes come up and I have to make a decision right now.
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, that was the case with the non-Trinitarian church that Mark just mentioned. And so the guy put up his hand right there.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Jamie Dunlop:
Said, here’s the information that I don’t think you have.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. And the elders wisely said we’re not going to force a decision on this right now then.
Should You Set Aside Your Beliefs for Your Elders?
Jamie Dunlop:
Is there ever a time to vote yes to what the elders are saying, even though I think they are wrong?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, yeah. I mean, I could, I could…
Mark Dever:
Depends on what you mean by wrong.
Jonathan Leeman:
If I think they are wrong in proposing a $1.1 million budget when I think the prudent thing is to propose a $1.05 million budget. Yes, you should vote yes.
If I think they’re wrong by putting someone up for a membership who does not believe in the Trinity, that’s a very different wrong. So then of course you vote no.
Mark Dever:
I think we have to allow for there to be non-ultimate issues at stake in decisions, some decisions that the church has to make. Most of those will be made by the staff or by individuals just administering the church. Very few of these I think would come to a congregational vote. But we have to allow that category to exist.
I always quote the Westminster Confession, Chapter 1, Statement 6, where it says, “The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture, unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit or traditions of men. Nevertheless…
We acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some things, some circumstances rather, concerning the worship of God and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.” So common human actions, common to human actions in societies should be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence. That’s where we get the idea that you could have a split vote at a church meeting on that kind of matter.
Jonathan Leeman:
A $1.1 million budget versus…
Mark Dever:
Yeah, now normally I think the safe thing to do is to trust the elders, the ones who are leading the church, they have oversight of the whole thing, but you may have a particular reason, which if you sat down and explained to us we could understand why to you that seems like it would be harming the church and you do not want to vote for that.
Jonathan Leeman:
And you can in good conscience then vote against?
Mark Dever:
Possibly.
Jamie Dunlop:
Jonathan, I was going to say, that think there’s a related question that lends itself more to principles, which is what decision should the elders bring to the congregation for the congregation to vote on?
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s where I started at the very beginning of the conversation.
Jamie Dunlop:
Right. So should the elders bring the budget to the congregation or should they just say, well, the congregation recognizes us as elders, and we’re going to make this decision for them?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Jamie Dunlop:
Should the elders bring to the congregation the question of which photocopier they should buy? Should the elders bring every single membership application to the congregation? Should the elders bring the property purchase decision that they’re thinking about making to the congregation?
I think there you actually do have some more clear principles than the first question, which is when should I as a private member of the church vote no, which I think largely has to do with my love of trust in the elders, the information I’m looking at, my own conscience and so forth. If I’m looking at that other question, which decision do elders bring?
You have, I think, very helpfully articulated the responsibility of the congregation to guard the who and the what of the gospel. The who of the gospel, who, well, why don’t you explain it? You wrote it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Who are the gospel members of the church, what are the gospel, what do we teach?
Jamie Dunlop:
Exactly. And I would think –
Mark Dever:
Who is confessing believingly, and credibly, and what are they confessing?
Jonathan Leeman:
Exactly. Confessions and confessors.
Jamie Dunlop:
The role of the church is to protect the who and the what of the gospel today and for the next generation.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Jamie Dunlop:
And so it seems that if you think about sort of the cliff that we don’t want to go over we lose the who or the what of the gospel, either today or in the future. The closer a decision gets to us getting over that cliff, the more likely it is that the…
That’s what happens, you go over the cliff. The more likely it is that the elders should bring it to the congregation. I think that’s where you can have some more kind of principled conversation.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I think that’s very helpful. And by the way, this is an article Jamie has written and should be up sometime soon. I’m going to push to actually get it released before we release this conversation.
Jamie Dunlop:
Which is an old memo that I wrote to our elders years and years ago that we decided to turn into an article.
Mark Dever:
And it stands in value. Just like your integrity and never having done any of the sounds on these tape recordings.
Jamie Dunlop:
Trying to clear up some slander that was done in a previous podcast.
Jonathan Leeman:
Guys, guys, guys, break it up, break it up. Okay, listen, you’ve been using the prudential thing, but let me just give you one more elder qualification. Elders say, nominate this guy. I don’t think he meets an elder qualification on one of those. It’s a subjective judgment call.
Like, let’s say able to teach. I don’t think this guy can teach. And now they’re saying it violates my conscience to call a guy an elder who I don’t think is able to teach. Even though they’re all saying, well, he can teach.
Jamie Dunlop:
Well, if you really mean violates my conscience, then you should vote no. Though as a pastor, I hear people say that sometimes, and I don’t think they know what they’re talking about.
Jonathan Leeman:
You think, really?
Jamie Dunlop:
That’s just kind of Christianese for saying I don’t like it. So you have to obey your conscience, but just make sure you define your terms carefully. Read through Romans 14.
Jonathan Leeman:
Your conscience is informed appropriately.
Jamie Dunlop:
But I do think your point about some qualifications for elders is more objective, like is he a drunkard? Some are more subjective, like being able to teach and manage the household well. I think the closer you are to those objective qualifications, the more likely it is that you should vote no, even though the elders brought the nomination.
And you probably have a role to trust as you get closer to some of those less objective, which doesn’t mean you never vote no. And in all these cases, you just talk to the elders because they need to have the information you have. But the more subjective a matter is, the more you should lean toward trust in the elders.
Mark Dever:
You have to allow people to sincerely think differently than you do. But at some point, that difference of thought means you go to a different church.
Should You Leave Your Church If You Vote Against Your Elder?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. In a healthy church, people know how to trust the elders. And in a healthy church, elders’ recommendations are trustworthy. At the same time, at a healthy church, sometimes people will disagree.
But just one last thing I want to clear up here, Jamie. Do I really need to assume any time I vote against the elders, it’s a sign that I need to leave the church?
Jamie Dunlop:
No, but sometimes it is. And I think it depends on what the issue is and why you chose to vote against them. My guess is there are many churches in America where if they had congregational meetings, those people would be voting against the elders and staying and they should have left a long time ago.
Jonathan Leeman:
Good advice. Any final comments on this, Dr. Dever?
Mark Dever:
I think Jamie has spoken wisely.
Jamie Dunlop:
I don’t know what the name of the article is. Maybe it’s just going to be, when may a congregation vote against its elders. But Lord willing by the time this conversation is…
Mark Dever:
Just call it when to vote no.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, you need to specify a little bit more for the sake of those web searches.
Mark Dever:
- Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
So take a look at the article. Thanks for your time.
Jamie Dunlop:
Whatever it is.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Whatever it…
Jonathan Leeman:
Thanks, brothers.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
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