On Words (Pastors Talk, Ep. 248)
How can pastors best steward their words in ministry? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss being naturally gifted with words as a pastor and incidents that have encouraged them to speak more carefully. They encourage asking wise questions in pastoral ministry that lead to truth and practicing being a better listener. Learn about using sarcasm as a pastor and where to draw the line.
- Are Those in Pastoral Ministry Naturally Gifted with Words?
- Incidents that Inspire More Careful Wording
- Asking Questions In Pastoral Ministry
- How to Become a Better Listener
- Using Sarcasm as a Pastor
Related Resources:
Articles: Speak Only What Is Good to Give Grace, Giving and Receiving Godly Criticism: Sharpening Each Other With Your Words, Book Review: A Way With Words, by Dan Darling
Podcast: What Makes a Good Pastor?, On Pastoral, Public Tone with Kevin DeYoung
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Mark Dever:
Good morning everybody. It is time for pastors to talk.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is a new season or something with a new Mark Dever.
Mark Dever:
You know, I have been to Singapore. I have seen the promised land.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so right now we’re dealing with a jet-lagged Mark Dever. That should be fun.
Mark Dever:
Especially because we have a very careful topic for consideration this time.
Jonathan Leeman:
We do.
Mark Dever:
It’s an interesting topic, especially given my recent public confession.
Jonathan Leeman:
Learn more at 9Marks.org. What’s your public confession?
Mark Dever:
With you! Right here in this space with Kevin DeYoung. Well, okay, this one was a very sincere confession.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I know it was, and I’ve been encouraged by the feedback we received on that.
Mark Dever:
Thanks for passing that along.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I’m sure you’ve heard a few things.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Oh, did you think I was being sarcastic?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, sarcasm is…
Mark Dever:
Okay, here we go. This is part of it now.
Jonathan Leeman:
This one wasn’t my idea. We’re getting right into it. This conversation was not my idea. This came from a brother named Silas, who’s a student at Bethlehem College and Seminary.
Mark Dever:
Did he help a guy named Paul?
Jonathan Leeman:
Different Silas. He also sent us a really kind email thanking us for a number of things. But then he thanked you specifically, Mark, for your intentional and consistent effort toward clarity and charity with your words, he says.
Mark Dever:
Oh, he should know me better.
Jonathan Leeman:
He says, along these lines, many who have interacted with Mark and the others at 9Marks are aware of how much intentionality you all put into word choice for the sake of clarity, as is displayed in this podcast. He goes on to say the podcast has unofficially addressed other aspects of a pastor’s speech and language, such as episode 8 of “What Makes a Good Pastor?”.
Even still, I think the topic would benefit from a whole episode intentionally devoted to the subject. He says I believe it’d be an encouragement to listeners and how to practice clarity and use our tongue to bless both God and others as you brothers have worked toward and demonstrated.
Mark Dever:
Amen. Silas, thank you for that. Let me just stay at the beginning of this conversation. This is probably the area of my life where I’m most regularly confronted in charity by brothers who feel I have not treated them as I should. I’m pretty confident that I have somebody talk to me about this once every two or three weeks.
Jonathan Leeman:
“Mark, the way you use your words is what hurt me and upset me.”
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Usually people saying this are dear people. I love them and they love me. And they’ll just say, Hey, Mark, your humor here or the way you said this. So, I mean, I feel I’m 63, but I feel like I’m still a learner on this one.
Your Words and How They Can Be Used as a Strength or Weakness
Jonathan Leeman:
Your words and your use of words are both a strength and weakness.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I think I have a very quick mind and I think I have a good way to be humorous. And I think sometimes the ready humor overtakes the ability to rightly perceive and value what will edify.
Jonathan Leeman:
You don’t bat a thousand.
Mark Dever:
I certainly don’t bat a thousand, though I want to and I pray to. How does it feel for you to bat a thousand? See, I mean, I just can’t, it’s like, I can’t help it. There it is. And you’ve been with this for 30 years. You’re a good man.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I often say to people when they ask about doing this, these conversations that we have, I just say, Mark is so quick. And I often think of the right thing to say about four seconds after it’s time to say it. Right? I feel like if I sit down, I can think through things pretty well.
Yeah, brother, you’re right. I remember one time we were at TGC and you were having a conversation with Tim Keller. Now, Tim Keller is a bright man, a brilliant man, but I remember you were just kind of running around him.
Mark Dever:
Tim’s a different person. Tim’s a brilliant brother, but he’s a little bit more like you. He’s more about taking a bunch of information, thinking it through very carefully, reshuffling a few times, get it really good. Whereas I’m like, look over, glance at it, get the main point, throw it around, and go.
Jonathan Leeman:
Nonetheless, you are gifted in words. And you know what I have here? I have a list of questions that our friend Silas actually gave me. Alex Duke did not produce these. Silas did. And friends, if you’re listening and you have an awesome episode, send it in. Maybe we’ll use it. And Silas did that. So I’m going to walk through Silas’ questions.
Mark Dever:
Alex, by all means, you should send a gift card to Silas.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s true. Number one. How much of you guys…
Mark Dever:
I have not seen these questions.
Are Those in Pastoral Ministry Naturally Gifted with Words?
Jonathan Leeman:
This is, this is true. It’s true. How much of your effort and showing clarity and charity through your words is natural gifting or personality? How much of it is the result of practice? You are thoughtful about your words.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, I would say it’s largely a result of natural gifting and personality.
Jonathan Leeman:
Cause from a young age, you were articulate.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
How much do you practice your words? You’re a preacher. You must.
Mark Dever:
I don’t. I do if I have the self-awareness to think what I’m about to say I could do poorly and it could hurt others or not help what I’m trying to do, then I will put more thought ahead of time into how to express it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, that goes to my next question. So have you always been thoughtful with your words, intentional in a sanctified way?
Mark Dever:
Yes and no. I mean, yes, in that, they tend to obey me.
Jonathan Leeman:
Your words do.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. So one of the things that I’m aware of as I get older, is I wonder what it will be like when I begin to lose that. I remember getting this letter from Carl Henry in the 1990s at some point, when Carl was reflecting on the fact that he was, he could tell he was not thinking as clearly as he used to think.
And I remember reading that, I was in my 30s, and thinking like, what must that be like to perceive your own lack of ability to perceive? Well, whatever Carl was experiencing there is what he would have in his late 70s or early 80s.
I’m not experiencing that yet, but I have consistently throughout my life experienced more ability to produce an immediate result than to necessarily produce the result I want or should want.
Jonathan Leeman:
Do you mean you can more easily say something provocative?
Mark Dever:
I can make a splash in the pool. That’s no problem. You know, all I have to do is take a deep breath, look around the room, think of what we’ve been talking about and I feel like I can put out something. What I can’t do is guarantee by 100% or even 80% it’s going to be helpful.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
You know, it’s sometimes helpful.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is question three from Silas.
Mark Dever:
Do you think we’ve dealt with one and two in helpful ways?
Jonathan Leeman:
We’re going to keep pushing.
Mark Dever:
All right.
Incidents that Inspire More Careful Wording
Jonathan Leeman:
Have there been specific incidents that inspired a more intentional, careful, and or charitable approach to your speech? Can you share one or two?
Mark Dever:
Yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
Share one or two.
Mark Dever:
Getting married. Just watching my words affects my wife. Who you know Connie has never uttered anything to me other than out of sincere love for me. I mean ever. I mean she may have sinned, but man they’re not against me and she’s just she could not be more loving and kind and generous and encouraging and…
Jonathan Leeman:
Is there you on the other hand?
Mark Dever:
Well, I, she naturally is more thoughtful and I think it’s typical of women. She naturally is more thoughtful of the effect of her words than I am. I’m often, and I see this more commonly with guys, you know, we are staring at an idea and we’re like thinking out loud about that idea and it kind of comes out our mouth.
And sometimes it’s helpful and sometimes it’s not. So I think particularly in the early years of marriage, I learned a lot about trying to just hold my tongue to think about things more. And I’ve been impressed with the brothers I’ve been around.
H.B. Charles is super thoughtful about his speech. He’s very careful and considerate in what he says. I’m often around brothers that I’m struck by. Wow. I like on our staff right now, Joseph Thigpen is like this, very thoughtful about what he says.
Jonathan Leeman:
When I think of somebody like H.B. I think of, you never get the feeling that H.B. is trying to impress you. And I think that the impulse to impress might prompt one to speak too quickly. Right?
Especially if you have a platform, you’re a pastor, you want to impress people, you want to sound like, you know, something, I got an answer here to his, I speak quickly yet his slowness to speak even on panels, you know, that we’ve been on sort of thing. I think he’s able to do it because he’s not, doesn’t seem to be, I don’t know his heart doesn’t seem to be looking to impress people.
Mark Dever:
Slightly defending myself. I would say that…
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m not saying you’re trying to, but…
Mark Dever:
I’m just trying to divulge and think reflectively…
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, go.
Mark Dever:
Which I don’t think I’m great at. I think for me, there’s often more like a dog splashing around in the water. It’s just so fun.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re the dog?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And the speech to the water that I’m splashing around in. And I just like running out in it and enjoying it. And man, I should have thought about that better before I jumped in that one.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. I think of the Philip van Steenburgh story.
Mark Dever:
Do you mean the recent one?
Jonathan Leeman:
Teaching you to be careful with your words. And honestly, Mark, I feel like I’ve seen a shift in you since that conversation.
Mark Dever:
Well, praise the Lord if that’s true.
Jonathan Leeman:
In public moments.
Mark Dever:
So here’s the deal. Last year at Midwestern on panels, Philip van Steenburgh, who’s a pastor in the area, was there and he’s an old friend. And I went to see him at his church afterward and we walked from his church to his house. And the first thing, and this is so typical of Philip, faithful Philip, gets it right at the beginning of our walk.
Hey, Mark, remember that trip we took to… Well, a certain place and, how we heard this certain teacher and you’re reflecting on, is something seemed kind of off? He seemed kind of like a grumpy old man. I said, yeah. And that looked at me like, Oh no. I said, you’re saying that I and Philip just smiled and said, well, well, not exactly, but you’re kind of getting there.
And some of the responses that you gave and I, and I thought, and I immediately had come to mind two or three different times. I had been directly short and severe on the panel. And I said, ah, that’s, thank you for saying that. That’s really useful. I don’t want to become that. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
So I think, I think as a man ages and in the pastorate and let’s just say there’s even been some success…
Mark Dever:
If you had 30 years in the pastor, there’s been some of you would have gotten out. Probably.
Jonathan Leeman:
My sense is it’s easy to start being careless. Little flippant at times, a certain, you know, some ways you’re going to be growing in godliness. That happens, too. But in so far as the flesh remains, the flesh for whatever part it remains is going to increasingly get lazy.
Mark Dever:
I think, I think with all of us, we had different kinds of fronts that are very active in terms of temptation that we’re aware of. Now there may be others more subtle that are going on and whirling us around that we’re not even aware of.
But for me, probably the number one active temptation has always been verbal. Yeah, I mean, even before I was a Christian, I remember just destroying some people with my words.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because it’s a place of natural gifting and competence and you can do it. You can assert control and command.
Mark Dever:
It’s very effective.
Asking Questions In Pastoral Ministry
Jonathan Leeman:
Question five, why do you ask so many questions in conversations?
Mark Dever:
Silas, how do you know I do that? If I don’t know Silas, how does he know I do that?
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t know. You and I were recently doing a podcast in which you talked about doing that. So maybe you heard.
Mark Dever:
Silas, I do do that. That is true.
Jonathan Leeman:
Why do you do that?
Mark Dever:
I’m fascinated by other people. You can talk to me about your grandmother. I’m gonna be sincerely interested.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s the historian in you?
Mark Dever:
That’s the people person in me. I’m just I’m interested.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. It’s useful pastorally though, especially.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, and if somebody’s gonna be asking me advice on something, then the more information I have about the background they’re coming from, so like for example, this last Sunday, I preached at a church in Singapore. I asked a brother, I gave him my email address. I thanked him for having a good face to preach to. He did.
Jonathan Leeman:
I know the type.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah. And are they useful when you’re preaching? Oh my goodness. They’re like a lifesaver. So this brother’s like that and he was like that not just once, but two or three times. And I was tired. So it was especially helpful.
So just on the last day on the Sunday after I preached, I asked Ryan, I said, Hey, just give him my email address and ask him to email me. So he did. Then I said, Hey, just send me, send me your life story. Tell me about yourself.
Well, he did. I got yesterday pretty good, long amount of information and that’s great. And my response to reading that was to say, Hey, thanks for chapter one. I’d like chapter two now. So he gave me a lot about one sort of aspect of his life, but I now wanted some other stuff. I may never see this guy again till heaven.
Jonathan Leeman:
But you’re curious, you’re personally curious.
Mark Dever:
I’m curious. I want to know. And if we end up talking about stuff, that’s going to be the background that will give me more wisdom to know how to help. And I may learn things from the same things he’s sharing about his own life.
Is It Possible To Ask Too Many Questions?
Jonathan Leeman:
One challenge that in my experience is in a moment I can be very curious and ask a lot of questions about the grandma or whatever. But then I forget and sometimes I worry I’ve built a little too much expectation or trust there in a way that might not be thoughtful or kind in the moment. Does that ever happen to you?
Mark Dever:
I’m sure I don’t remember everything I’m told, but I do think when I tend to have those kinds of conversations, it’s usually with somebody I’m going to have a continuing relationship with. And I do tend to get them kind of situated in my mind through that. So while I may not remember all the particulars, I get them seated kind of the right way for, it seems to generally.
Jonathan Leeman:
How’d you develop the habit of asking questions, Silas wants to know.
Mark Dever:
Well, Silas, my self-conscious answer would be as a kid, I read the Socratic Dialogues of Plato.
Jonathan Leeman:
As a kid.
Mark Dever:
As a 9 and 10-year-old.
Jonathan Leeman:
9 and 10-year-olds do.
Mark Dever:
That’s certainly what I did. And Socrates was just my hero. And so I’ve always liked learning by asking questions. I love that format.
How Do You Pursue Truth Through Asking Questions?
Jonathan Leeman:
Question six though, how do you ask questions that lead to the truth without asking leading questions? Silas wants to know.
Mark Dever:
I don’t know that leading questions are wrong.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because Socrates does the leading question a little bit.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. The way I’m hearing the word leading, it’s very obvious that I already know where I want to go. And I very much will ask more open-ended questions to see where someone goes. So were your parents religious? Were they both equally religious?
Which one was more religious than the other? Did that ever cause any friction? Did they each grow up in the same kind of home that they were? How did the in-laws feel about the other one? Stuff like that. Gives me the tension in the home, the kind of atmosphere that the person kind of grows up in is shaped by.
Jonathan Leeman:
Sure, that’s relatively harmless. That’s biography. What about this guy you think he’s not treating his wife well? You’re pretty sure. You don’t know, but you’re pretty sure.
Mark Dever:
Okay, that’s a very different situation.
Is it Okay to Ask Leading Questions?
Jonathan Leeman:
Right. That’s okay. In a situation like that, are you going to ask leading questions?
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, as much as possible, I’m going to ask a question that everybody in the room will think is fair and that will be answered honestly. I want to shape a question like that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Including those questions that are going to help him divulge his sin or even recognize his sin and the way he’s talking to his wife if he doesn’t recognize it or whatever the case would be.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Leaving questions a little bit there. Recognizing there’s a time for everything, how do you discern when it’s important to speak and when to remain silent?
Mark Dever:
Well, I think Silas is not asking that about me. He’s saying how does one.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, I think that’s right.
Mark Dever:
Okay. Think if you don’t speak, will someone else be your words needed?
Jonathan Leeman:
Some guys just think their words are always needed.
Mark Dever:
Well, that is true. I think there are more guys who speak a lot who just don’t think about it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that may be. I mean, a related question here is… Your job as a pastor is to speak the truth.
Mark Dever:
You just sleepwalk through these things. I mean, you’re just going to read these things. You have to answer these.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is going well. I like the balance of…
Mark Dever:
I think you’re just coasting in the late afternoon.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think Dr. Leeman has to step up and answer a couple of these.
Jonathan Leeman:
You can ask a question if you want.
Mark Dever:
What’s the one you’re in the middle of right now with me?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Your job is to preach the truth.
Mark Dever:
Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman:
To exhort.
Mark Dever:
Jonathan.
How to Become a Better Listener
Jonathan Leeman:
How do pastors become better at being quick to listen and slow to speak?
Mark Dever:
So how do you become better at that?
Jonathan Leeman:
It depends on the context, right? So you’re sitting in a board meeting, that’s one thing or an elder meeting, that’s one thing, or sitting just, you and a friend, that’s another thing. So it really does depend on context. But if there’s any sort of difficulty or complexity in the situation at play, I’m going to default to some extent towards not speaking and listening just as a foundational de facto position, right?
Mark Dever:
No, wait, wait, wait. This is a stated policy or this is actually a summary of your practice?
Jonathan Leeman:
This is a summary of my practice and my policy.
Mark Dever:
Oh, I’m sure it’s your policy.
Jonathan Leeman:
In fact, I got into trouble a little bit. The chairman of a board I was once a part of time on, he said, Jonathan, I’ve noticed you wait too long to speak. Because then you come out and you’re kind of coming out guns blazing, but it’s like 30 minutes into the conversation and it’s obvious you’ve been sort of sitting there ready to explode. And I thought he was right, but that was me trying to implement the policy of being slow to speak and listen and make sure where the room is.
Mark Dever:
And so, so there’s no safe space.
Jonathan Leeman:
I mean, kind of. And so what I, since he gave me that advice, I’ve thought to myself, you know what, I’m not going to wait until we’re 30 minutes in and this train is going down. Right. Well, at 30 minutes, the train’s going down a track.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And then you jump in because you feel like you got to rescue it and then you’re pushing too hard. So jumping at 15, jumping at 5 or 10 or whatever, and maybe helping shape the track that this train is going to be on. So it really is, it takes wisdom, and discernment.
One-on-one conversations. I mean, I’ve trained under you, so I’m going to ask a lot of questions. Yeah, I don’t know if I have anything original to add beyond what you said there. Brother, quick to listen, slow to speak when your job is to speak the truth.
Mark Dever:
Well, yeah, I mean, I realize James says that and it’s inspired by the Holy Ghost, but I obey it imperfectly.
Jonathan Leeman:
Right.
Mark Dever:
So I’ll go into every elders meeting thinking like, okay, I want to put full reverse thrust on the jets of my mouth. So I want to try to get through this whole meeting by saying nothing. And by 17 minutes into the meeting, I’m like talking and you know, doing stuff. So I just we all have to know ourselves.
Jonathan Leeman:
I assume that was harder at age 30 than at age 60. Or no?
Mark Dever:
I don’t think so.
Balancing Boldness and Tenderness in Conversations
Jonathan Leeman:
So how do you balance boldness with tenderness in your word choice, tone, and body language?
Mark Dever:
I always go for boldness.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, you don’t.
Mark Dever:
Well, I’m just saying what I do, not what I should do. I think my tendency is boldness.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, that’s fine. That’s your tendency. You give thought to being tender.
Mark Dever:
I give a lot of thought to it because I’m so naturally…
Jonathan Leeman:
How do you balance those two things
Mark Dever:
By taking consideration as best you can of the effect your words, your words will have.
Jonathan Leeman:
Which includes knowing who you’re talking to.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, knowing the other person, yeah, knowing how they’re gonna respond. And I, again, I do, I think I do fairly poorly at that. So it’s one of the reasons I’ve always said I think it’d be better as a professor than a pastor because for some reason I feel like a professor gets, he’s allowed to get verbal speeding tickets more than a pastor. A pastor’s speech needs to be more becoming, more exemplary.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because souls are tangled up.
Mark Dever:
Well, souls are always tangled up, but because my work is specifically a biblical office in the way of professors, it’s not.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s right. Question 11, since Jonathan likes true or false questions— true or false, a pastor better serves…
Mark Dever:
Silas really know that you like true and false questions.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m trying to read what’s on the page.
Mark Dever:
That’s so funny.
Using Sarcasm as a Pastor
Jonathan Leeman:
True or false, a pastor better serves his congregation with thoughtful, sincere words than sarcastic remarks.
Mark Dever:
Silas, I detect some irony if not sarcasm even in that question posed to me. So I’ll say true.
Jonathan Leeman:
Follow up to that. What role does sarcasm play in your ministry, if any?
Mark Dever:
Well, too big a role and I am always working on that so you can pray for me in that. I don’t think sarcasm is by nature wrong or forbidden for Christians. I think sarcasm can be done in a mutually understood humorous way that’s enjoyable, but my sarcasm is just again and again, I think ends up having effects that I do not want it to have.
Jonathan Leeman:
So how do you, next question, how do you monitor and control your use of sarcasm?
Mark Dever:
Well, I just kill most of the things that I think it’s saying before they go out of my mouth. And then when somebody brings up ways that I’ve hurt them or, you know, affected them in ways I haven’t meant to, I just ask for their forgiveness. And I try to learn from those examples.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think the other thing you do is try to put positive, encouraging words in their place.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s right. I think that’s true.
Jonathan Leeman:
What I appreciate about your sarcasm is that it’s useful in killing sacred cows.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
People who take certain things a little too seriously.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
In themselves or in others and the way we do things here.
Mark Dever:
In me.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. And it can play an effective role in that. Jesus reminds us that out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. What heart attitudes might pastors need to work on in order to speak the truth in love?
Mark Dever:
You know, I think we generally need to pray for and work on loving the sheep more. So it’s not merely loving the Lord, but it is also specifically loving the sheep and valuing them as the sheep made in God’s image.
The sheep for whom Christ has died, they’re his sheep, not ours. And I certainly pray to feel paternal and maternal care for the sheep that I have a unique responsibility for.
Jonathan Leeman:
Because loving them allows you to recognize them in their strengths and their weaknesses.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s not me trying to, you know, not confront anybody ever. It’s just trying to, yeah, just value them and be on their side.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. I think what’s helpful for me in those ways is I think in certain respects, that I have a strong personality, a strong internal constitution. And it’s easy for me to expect the same of others and not moderate myself for others and recognize that maybe people are going to be more easily wounded.
Mark Dever:
I think most people do not have as strong a constitution.
Jonathan Leeman:
And so striving to accommodate to weakness in a way I think Christ very much does. He remembers that we are dust, as it were.
Mark Dever:
And honestly, Jonathan, the people who understand their own weaknesses and think about them more than you or I might naturally, be closer to having an accurate self-understanding than we are. Ours may feel better temporarily, but theirs may be better. Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I think that’s exactly right. Here’s Silas’ final kind of rounded-up conversation.
Mark Dever:
So like one time, I was preaching on the widow’s mites, and here’s my sarcasm. I’m in the middle of a sermon and I’m winding up and I’m saying, now, the point of this is not that you put two pennies in the offering plate next time you’re at church, like that’d be a blessing. I said that.
I said that out loud in the sermon. That’d be a blessing. Undermining the very point of the account that Jesus is giving there. You know, so like I’ve looked deliberately at the sermon.
I’ve just preached correctly. I have undermined it entirely with one spontaneous, therefore sincere sarcastic remark during my sermon. The Lord continues to use me as a pastor.
What Do We Do With Our Words?
Jonathan Leeman:
Amen. He sure does. Here’s the final round-up question. How would you encourage pastors to practice better clarity and charity in their statements and question-asking? This is kind of summarized: What do we do with our words?
Mark Dever:
It depends on the kind of situation we’re talking about. I think if we work at being clear, that in itself does a surprising amount to discipline our speech. It limits what we’re talking about. It hopefully presses us to be more biblical. You know, if you’re talking about pastoral counseling or an individual disciplinary relationship, that’s a bit different.
But if we’re thinking of public statements, explaining doctrine, talking about God, talking about our needs as sinners, then clarity is our friend. And clarity will help us achieve and get those things that we want.
Jonathan Leeman:
And charity shows up how?
Mark Dever:
Charity is all the other stuff we’ve been talking about, thinking about the way our words affect people and affect people who may be less strongly constituted than you or I.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. And knowing yourself, if you are naturally clear, you might need to work a little harder on the charity side.
Mark Dever:
That’s right, that’s right.
Jonathan Leeman:
Brother, any final thoughts, anything you’d like to add on words? And I’ll be honest, he said again in the spirit of Leeman, anything else you brothers would like? So he’s listened to a couple of these.
Mark Dever:
He has. I appreciate how careful you are with your words.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you. That’s it?
Mark Dever:
That’s it.
Jonathan Leeman:
There it is. Thanks, brother.
Mark Dever:
Thank you.
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Pastors Talk
A weekly conversation between Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever about practical aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry.
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