On How to Disagree with Your Pastor (Pastors Talk, Ep. 241)
How do you approach disagreeing with your pastor? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman emphasize the importance of approaching your pastor with love when you do not agree with them. They explain how to respond to criticism from your congregation as a pastor and end their discussion by talking about how to advise others when they approach you with grievances against their pastor.
- How to Disagree With Your Pastor
- Disagreeing With Love
- How to Recieve Criticism as a Pastor
- Advising Others Who Disagree With Their Pastor
Other Resources From 9Marks:
Transcript
The following is a lightly edited transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Jonathan Leeman:
Hi, this is Jonathan Leeman.
Mark Dever:
This is Mark Dever.
Jonathan Leeman:
Welcome to this episode of 9Marks Pastors Talk. 9Marks exists to equip churches and pastors to grow according to biblical standards and health.
Mark Dever:
I don’t think, actually, I don’t think you normally say that.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, I, no, I was distracted.
Mark Dever:
Sorry, man.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s okay.
Mark Dever:
Keep going.
Jonathan Leeman:
9Marks exists to help pastors build healthy churches. There it is.
Mark Dever:
And one of the things Nathan Knight likes about these podcasts is that you and I make mistakes.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s right. He’s encouraged.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And we should, we should like to knock this one out of the park.
Jonathan Leeman:
We’re on that road. Yeah. The goal of this particular conversation is
Mark Dever:
It’s just to make it through.
Jonathan Leeman:
Is that your goal?
Mark Dever:
Well, I have much today, brother, much to do.
Jonathan Leeman:
Not much sleep last night?
Mark Dever:
Oh no. Good sleep last night by God’s grace.
How to Disagree With Your Pastor
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, here’s what I want help on Mark and others want help on. What do I do when I disagree with my pastor?
Mark Dever:
Your pastor.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes.
Mark Dever:
When you disagree with your pastor.
Jonathan Leeman:
That’s the topic.
Mark Dever:
As opposed to disagreeing with your wife or your friend or a deacon in the church or a non-Christian that you work with.
Jonathan Leeman:
Understanding that the scripture places like Hebrews 13 call us to submit and obey. Two strong words, submit and obey our leaders.
Mark Dever:
Do you mean like the pastor?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes, the pastor.
Mark Dever:
Okay, all right.
Jonathan Leeman:
What kind of obligations does that place on me as I’m thinking about?
Mark Dever:
I’m dead serious. Do you know who one of the most helpful people for me has been to think about this?
Jonathan Leeman:
No.
Mark Dever:
You.
Jonathan Leeman:
I was going to say me, but I didn’t.
Mark Dever:
It’s true because of some of your early conversations, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago about command and counsel.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh, right. Yeah.
Mark Dever:
I think you’ve been helpful to us as elders in thinking about because you know, there’ve been times I would say 20 years ago here when there was to be an elder who would give out much more specific advice to a member of the church and some of the other elders would hear about it. We’d go like, I wouldn’t actually say that.
But now this poor member has just received that as like the elder spoke counsel. And it’s like, well, you got one elder’s counsel, but some of the other elders might have some other stuff to say about that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Has a church member ever disagreed with you?
Mark Dever:
I think today. I mean, yes, brother, every, every day. Yes.
What Do Churches Disagree About?
Jonathan Leeman:
What kind of things have they disagreed with you about again?
Mark Dever:
You know, occasionally doctrinal stuff, though that’d be a minority of the things we’re thinking about. It’s more usually going to be something about how something in the church got done or didn’t get done or maybe something that I said in a sermon or what I did or did not do with a certain group or person or yeah, it’s just an infinite variety.
It’s like, what, what has your wife disagreed with you about? You know, you live with the congregation, you’re with them all the time. There’s a great variety to choose from.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think I remember the first time I disagreed with you. I wasn’t a member.
Mark Dever:
It’s a vast storehouse. If we take all the times that I know of now, you probably in your godliness in these latter years have kept them from me, but all the disagreements we ever had, I’m sure if you draw a line to the middle of them, it probably hits in 97 or 98. You know, like I’m sure fully half of them were in our first year or two of relating.
Jonathan Leeman:
Oh yeah. Oh, 1997. Yeah, no, that’s right. Well, mine goes back to –
Mark Dever:
You got converted and you were mature and you’ve just been kind.
Jonathan Leeman:
The first one I remember –
Mark Dever:
But your initial way as a non-Christian of relating to people was through dispute.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s exactly right. Argument.
Mark Dever:
You’re good at it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I’m not sure I’m good at executing it, but I certainly have them. My first dispute with you is that I recall walking back from Subway after you had done my church membership interview. So this would have been October, November, 1996.
Mark Dever:
Is this about gambling?
Jonathan Leeman:
No.
Mark Dever:
You were always a man for the cards.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah, that’s right. I remember saying, Mark, what’s the deal with being a Baptist church? Why do we have to make such a big deal about being Baptist?
Mark Dever:
I have no memory of this conversation.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I wouldn’t assume you would. But for me, that was kind of a doctrinal conviction. Like really, do we need to take our stand here?
Mark Dever:
Well, and you’d grown up in a Bible church, your dad, the staff of a Bible church.
How To Humbly Approach Disagreements
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s right. So it didn’t make sense to me. What approaches, I don’t know that I handled that well, what approaches have you found are helpful for you as the pastor? When a member comes to you with a disagreement, what is a humble, godly way to approach you?
Mark Dever:
Yeah, it does vary depending on who the person coming at me is. If the person is basically antagonistic or they’re basically not, is the person a Christian or not member or not? You said, members. So that’s, yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
right now in a way, you’re speaking to members.
Mark Dever:
Okay. Are they antagonistic to me or not?
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I asked the question, what’s a humble, godly, helpful way to approach?
Mark Dever:
I still repeat my question. Are they antagonistic toward me?
Jonathan Leeman:
Let’s say antagonistic. How do I execute humbly and godly?
Mark Dever:
I just might not. I mean, okay. So they’re not antagonistic. Okay. Well, yeah. Then I just have to look at my superhuman strength to become defensive and just realize like, okay, this person is giving me feedback and I need to put a full retro jet on my mouth.
I need to be careful with the expression on my face. I need to encourage their speaking honestly to me because that’s good. You really don’t want to put yourself in a position where you discourage honest feedback. That’s a really dangerous position for any of us just in terms of our own spiritual lives.
Jonathan Leeman:
We can do that as husbands, fathers, and pastors.
Mark Dever:
That’s right. You gotta be extra. So with your wife, you know, you learn to be extra solicitous. You know, I’ve gone searching for Connie twice this morning and found her because of some verbal cues or some nonverbal cues. You know, so that’s as pastors, we just gotta be sensitive all the time to how is this sheep doing?
How’s that sheep doing? And, um, you know, if we can, if, if they in their growth and maturity learn to give us negative feedback for a positive reason, positively, that’s awesome. But we can’t require that of our sheep.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Well, right now you’re focusing on your posture as the receiver of the, which, uh, you’re saying solicitous, inviting to some, to some extent.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Especially if they’re not antagonistic. If you think they’re on your side, you know, there’s not an outstanding doctrinal issue. They’re arguing for hell’s cessation and you’re arguing that no, the hell’s eternal.
No, it’s not like that. It’s just, that they really are not sure that we should do the member’s meetings the way we’ve been doing them. They have a couple of ideas.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. But what do you want to say to them? Hey, here’s how you do it. Well, here’s a godly humble way to approach your pastor.
Mark Dever:
Well, if we’re not in a situation of pastoral abuse or doctrine elaboration, if you’re a normal godly, imperfect, good guy who’s trying to work for the Lord and for your good. Yeah. Then just realize the guy gets contradictory communication several times an hour. If the church has two or 300 people in it.
Jonathan Leeman:
I love that song. I hated that song.
Mark Dever:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Oh, she prayed so well. Oh, it sounded just deadly. Yeah. You know, or, um, wow. When are you going to preach on Proverbs again? We haven’t gotten that for years now, you know, or anyway, we don’t need to do that.
Realize Your Opinion Is Not the Only Opinion
Jonathan Leeman:
So I think that step one, realize your opinion is not the only opinion.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And then ultimately he’s going to give account to the Lord and that even as he is called to rely on the Lord and trust the Lord ultimately. So you are called to rely on the Lord and trust the Lord. You know, James warns us in Chapter 3 that not many of us should be teachers because teachers will give us stricter accounts.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yep.
Mark Dever:
Well, what does that mean? If everything, I don’t know of everything, but at least it means of the teaching and what they’re saying, you know, so there’s got to be, you should have some allowance for the fact that your pastor is already aware that he’s putting himself in a position of spiritual, not quite peril, but spiritual…
Jonathan Leeman:
Vulnerability.
Mark Dever:
Vulnerability is a good word. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
That the stakes are higher for him in some ways than they are for you.
Mark Dever:
And he’s doing it for you. So there’s already, you should already factor in a good bit of your love in what he’s doing or trying to do. And what you’re trying to do is give him more information that may affect and even flip a decision or the way he’s doing certain things.
Jonathan Leeman:
Listen, pastor, I understand you have more at stake in this conversation in some way than me nonetheless. And I recognize my opinion is not the only one. Anything else you want to put in that category for the member?
Mark Dever:
Well, yeah, Mark, I really appreciate the message. This and this was helpful. I do think you didn’t mention this at all. Or you know, I got a great email from a friend. I was preaching Luke 19, Zacchaeus, and I made a sort of paragraph-long statement about reparations, removing Zacchaeus as an example to prove the text, the need for current-day reparations.
Jonathan Leeman:
That was one of your applications.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I wasn’t speaking for and against reparations themselves as a political issue. I was just saying that people are driving it from this. I don’t think that’s what this is about. And I tried to explain what it was doing there.
And then, and I did say something like, it’s a complicated issue and blah, blah. Well, one member emailed me, Hey, thanks for the sermon. This is good. This is good. On the topic of reparations.
I think what you said about Luke 19 is true. I do think there are other aspects for you to consider. And as he started laying them out, it seemed obvious that he was right. Like, Oh yeah, I wasn’t thinking about that.
Oh yeah. Ooh, that’s a good point. Ooh yeah. But he wasn’t doing it in a gotcha way at all. It was probably in an email. He’s a good friend. And so I emailed him back and said, like, ah, good point. Yep. I should have thought of those things.
I wish I’d made it clear. This is a more complicated topic. And then he immediately emailed me back. He said, Oh, you did. You said, that we’d need to hold an elder’s address on this. So it’s funny. He was, he both defended what I did publicly.
So he said, no, you don’t, there’s nothing else you need to go back to the congregation about. It was fine, it was a good sermon, but he could hear my thinking and he was interacting with my thinking to show me stuff that I had not considered. He wondered if I had not.
And in fact I hadn’t. Now I thought about it in other contexts, but there, right then I had not. And it was really kind of him and useful and yeah. So perfect interaction. He was sort of covering me with love but was also…
Jonathan Leeman:
And charity.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Charitable assumptions. Apprehension of your motives.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. But would also know that I would, I would want to think more and understand more. And so he communicated specific things that I might want to take into account that I clearly had not by some of the sentences I said, and I thought he was right. And I let him know that.
Disagreeing With Love
Jonathan Leeman:
So in a sense, disagreeing with your pastor well just means all the ordinary ways of, if with maturity and love and kindness, disagreeing with somebody, things that you would apply to any other conversation or relationship also apply here.
Mark Dever:
Yes.
Mark Dever:
Usually assume people’s good motives. Yeah. So I have one friend who recently, was talking about becoming a senior pastor. And one of the conversations we had, he’s very good at a bunch of stuff. He’s a good communicator publicly. I said you have to be willing to be falsely accused constantly.
Jonathan Leeman:
The pastor does.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And with the best of motives, do not get paranoid. Do not think people are to get you. And once people don’t care that much about you, they’re, they’re living their own lives. They’re busy.
They have their wives, their kids, and their jobs, they’re busy, but it is so easy for anybody, particularly a public person to be misunderstood. And sometimes you’ll touch on something maybe that’s very important to them in a sermon or an interaction with somebody.
And so they will come at you with a negative and what you know is a false evaluation of something that you did or said. And ultimately you have to hold that very lightly. You have to know the Lord knows the truth. I love this person.
They will operate with their best judgment. Anything I can do to be helpful? So there has to be a kind of deep resignation in your soul. It’s just the Lord is good. His plans are good. Stuff I said to the congregation last Sunday about Philippians 1, eight, and nine, about the affection of Christ Jesus.
It’s just constant. It’s unending. And it’s not based on how well you and I do this podcast or you teach your class this week or, you know, whether I’m grumpy or not, I’m in a Q and A session I do tonight.
You know, it’s, it’s based on Christ and his love, his radiating righteous good merciful, just love towards us. And when we know that we become far less important to ourselves, and I think then we can judge ourselves much more accurately and in differently and include your criticism more accurately.
Jonathan Leeman:
Lowering our defenses helps us to love the person, not make too much of ourselves. I mean, as apprehending the love and goodness of God allows us to do those things.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. As an editor, do you constantly have to give negative feedback to authors?
Jonathan Leeman:
Yes.
Mark Dever:
So your job is to be a critic.
Jonathan Leeman:
The job of an editor. I remember realizing early on is not just to be a Christian critic, to even put it more aggressively and presumptuously.
Mark Dever:
You are the red pen of 9Marks.
Jonathan Leeman:
It is to say, I know how to say some of these things better than you do.
Mark Dever:
Though it’s your idea though.
Jonathan Leeman:
It’s your idea. Yeah. So you need to allow me to impose myself on your way of saying things.
How to Recieve Criticism as a Pastor
Mark Dever:
All right. So do you tell me what, what lessons do you learn? Cause you’re also an elder, you’ve pastored churches around the world, at least from the Caribbean to Kentucky. So what, what do you, what lessons reflecting on your work as an editor, do you see are there for a pastor in giving and receiving criticism?
Jonathan Leeman:
The first thing I’m mindful of as an editor, which I do think would be applicable was a, you gotta know who you’re talking to.
Mark Dever:
Oh, it’s so true.
Jonathan Leeman:
So are some people who like, I need to edit this, but I know you’re basically unteachable here.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. They may be a wonderful human being.
Jonathan Leeman:
But I know it’s just, it’s gonna, things are gonna blow up if I lean in too hard. Other people are just like, they are happy for me to rewrite the thing. Yeah. And, it can be a really, it’s not a simple, the godly versus the ungodly person.
Mark Dever:
You have godly or ungodly, both of those examples.
Jonathan Leeman:
The godly person might be a very developed writer who knows exactly how he wants his words
Mark Dever:
John Piper.
Jonathan Leeman:
And man, you gotta be careful when you step in because he’s been scrupulous and putting it just this way. Or you can have a really ungodly person who’s happy for you to, you know, red ink all over the thing. So it’s not as simple as godly ungodly.
He’d be just, you really have to take pastoral care. And I would say the same thing in matters of criticism with a pastor. So I sat down recently with a brother in the church and he is fairly new to the church and he had concerns over how we were dealing with the law and he wanted more Calvin’s third use of the law and felt like there was a little too much.
He had used, even used the word flippancy like, like, Oh, of course you’re going to send that’s fine. And I’m like, you can take out the, of course, and you can take out the, that’s fine. But yeah, there does need to be graciousness in us as we’re talking about people’s sins. But he was receiving it from us as kind of a flippancy towards sin.
And that was his critique of the kind of elder approach. As I was sitting down with him, I had a set of assumptions about him and his maturity that, to some extent, impacted how I responded. So there was that whole evaluation in good ways. I don’t mean to say that negatively about this man.
No, it occurred to me, okay, this is a mature brother with strong convictions. And so I’m going to interact with him as a mature brother with strong convictions. Both of those elements were at play in the way I responded to him. The other thing that was in play in my response to him is…
Mark Dever:
So stop there and observe something. So when a pastor is responding to criticism, part of what he’s going to have to do is evaluate the maturity of the person there he saw –
Jonathan Leeman:
Absolutely.
Mark Dever:
So if he’s talking to a fellow elder, he might have one set of possible responses. So the new Christian, another set, it’s not somebody who’s been abused. Maybe yet another set.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s exactly. That’s right. That’s right. Now he, again, handled it maturely because he said in his, here are some concerns I have. He qualified it by saying it this way. He said I recognize I’m new. I’m kind of jumping in mid-game, mid-conversation, and I don’t know everything that everybody in the church is taking for granted.
Maybe in that one, that I was very much, he said, I understand you guys may be taught, I’ve been talking about these things for years and I’ve just been listening to the last few months of conversations and I’m like, where is it? So he was giving the benefit of the doubt there.
The other thing that occurred to me in that conversation then back on me was Jonathan, how utterly foolish and stupid it would be for you to presume your balance between law and gospel is perfect. Like, of course, you and your fellow elders are going to bumble along to some extent, emphasize too much this way or that way from time to time. And you have ways to grow.
Mark Dever:
I mean, you also can’t have real theological differences that dispose you to be a certain way and not another.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, it was interesting about that conversation I knew on paper, our theology was going to be all the same, but how we applied that theology, and what we think needs to be emphasized could change a little bit. And so that was part of the conversation too. Okay. We’ve talked about what’s helpful, brother. Just give me the foot. What about Joel Beeke’’s book, Pastors and Their Critics?
Mark Dever:
I haven’t read it.
Jonathan Leeman:
Neither have I. No, but I’ve had good friends who’ve read it. Everybody says it’s not helpful.
Advising Others Who Disagree With Their Pastor
Mark Dever:
That’s what I’ve heard. What approaches have you found to be unhelpful? Maybe this is just the reverse side of everything you’re…
Mark Dever:
On the pastor or for the member?
Jonathan Leeman:
For the member. Remember, Hey, this is unhelpful.
Mark Dever:
Oh, to come in assuming bad motives. That’s really unhelpful.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah.
Mark Dever:
To come in, assuming any hurt you’ve taken of it was intended by the pastor to come in, assuming they thought of whatever you’re saying and they’ve decided against it to come in and assuming they don’t care to come. I mean, I could just keep going.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. A lot of assuming.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. And not assuming the best.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. You get a phone call from a friend in a different church. Good friend. He’s upset about the decision. Let’s say a budgetary decision. The church has made his pastors, let’s say they’re going to defund a missionary that he just loves this missionary.
Mark Dever:
Oh yeah, that’s hard.
Jonathan Leeman:
He’s, he’s, he’s upset about it. What should he do from there?
Mark Dever:
The pastor or the member?
Jonathan Leeman:
The member, this is a member, a friend of yours at another church and you’re giving him advice. I can’t believe they’re defunding this guy. He is awesome. What are you going to counsel him to do?
Mark Dever:
Oh, man. Okay. This is me, the pastor, the other church speaking to a member of… I’m the pastor of church an I’m seeing a member of church B. He’s an old good friend. He’s, he’s sounding off to me about that. Kind of letting off some steam.
Uh, I say to him, first thing, I am so glad you are so concerned for the spread of the gospel. Man, you could be living your life yourself and here you are a mature guy and you are all about the gospel being spread. Praise the Lord for that. I’m very thankful for that.
I’ve seen this evidence of it in your life. Second thing also really thankful for your church. Your church has a long history of supporting missions and you know, giving resources to people who want to take the gospel elsewhere. That’s awesome.
Uh, third thing, I don’t know a lot about your church’s mission philosophy. I don’t know all the missionaries you guys support. So I think it’s a fine thing for you. You’ve been a member there a long time to try and grow and your understanding of.
So if I were you, I would find the elder, the pastor who’s closest to this stuff and go out to a meal with him, take him out or take him out to coffee and just say, Hey, I’m looking at our missions budget and our own family giving and we’ll just try to understand things from our prayer life. Uh, and I see that we’re proposing next year, not to support the Joneses anymore.
And I’m just wanting to understand more of that. Should it, is there something I need to do pastorally to help the Joneses? Are we kind of pulling out of that field? Are we country members or somebody else?
Just if it’s appropriate now, if there’s stuff going on pastorally that you shouldn’t talk about, I trust you guys. But if it’s just anything else, I would love to know kind of what you’re thinking is in that. So I can understand better just in the context of a conversation like that.
Jonathan Leeman:
The bottom line, speak to the pastor.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
Try to understand the bigger picture.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
And that specific thing.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I think in First Corinthians 13, when Paul is describing love and I love it when he says there in the middle of it, you know, that love is patient and kind. It does not envy or boast. It is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way.
It is not irritable or resentful. It does not rejoice at wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. You know, can you put, you know, Mark Dever in there in the place of love or Jonathan Leeman or, you know, Alberto, and those are, yeah, those are good. Those are good questions to ask ourselves.
Jonathan Leeman:
And we know from the context of chapters 12 and 13, that the disagreements are having over gifts and so forth and disputes.
Mark Dever:
These things were important in the church.
Jonathan Leeman:
This is precisely a good place to apply it. Okay. Well, will you advise this brother to finally swallow it and submit it? Let’s suppose he says, okay, Mark, I’ve actually had those conversations. I think they’re wrong in this judgment. I think they’re making a mistake. I’ve done everything you’ve already said. I just disagree with them.
Mark Dever:
Well, yeah, then it’s really over to him. He has to decide how important this is to him. There are many ways, are many times when I’m sure he could just say, Hey, we’re going to go along with this. We don’t have to agree entirely on this.
Our family will just independently support these missionaries. Or he could say, you know, this is so central to my understanding. And I see the significance of this in this way that it’s going to be more Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas.
We’re just going to have to work separately. I know we’re working with the same Lord, the same ultimate end, but we’re just going to do it in different ways. And it could be either one.
Example of Disagreeing With Elders
Jonathan Leeman:
In another case study here, a plurality of elders, a member comes to you disagreeing with what the elders have decided on a particular significant matter. Let’s say the age of baptism.
Mark Dever:
Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
The member comes to you and is like, I don’t understand why the elders have decided to take this position on the age of baptism. And let’s suppose you even agree with the member. What do you say?
Mark Dever:
Well, when you say you, am I the main,
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re the main pastor.
Mark Dever:
I’m the main preacher and the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
Let’s just say any elder you, you’re either, you’re the main preacher or you’re one of the elders. And –
Mark Dever:
Well, I would give a slightly different answer depending on which of those I am.
Jonathan Leeman:
I’m trying to find something where the elders go one way and you go another way.
Mark Dever:
Depends on who you are.
Jonathan Leeman:
And I’m trying to give it some significance. This is not, you know, whether or not we’re doing a new HVAC.
Mark Dever:
Are you the senior pastor, the main preacher?
Jonathan Leeman:
We’ll start there.
Mark Dever:
Yes.
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re in the minority.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Okay. I experienced that often with our eldership, but I wouldn’t say I experienced it on super significant things. So if I were experiencing that, I think it’s just going to vary from brother to brother. I mean, so if my elders got back to me and said, Mark, we want to start regularly baptizing children as young as eight.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, nothing that radical.
Mark Dever:
Let me just say that.
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay. Okay.
Mark Dever:
Children as young as eight. I would have tried to have more conversations with them and then I would basically have to resign and I would try to do it as peacefully as possible.
Jonathan Leeman:
Well, I get that. Okay. So I’m trying to keep it from all the way to resignation. I’m keeping it more in the daily. They’ve chosen 13.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Well that’s, yeah, that’s very different.
Jonathan Leeman:
Yeah. Okay. Then how are you going to talk to the member? That’s what I want to know. Yeah. It’s something you think you can personally submit to what you’ve decided to submit. You can submit to the elders.
Mark Dever:
I would just try to explain to the member, listen, there are a couple of different ways Christians that we would agree with on just about everything. Think about this. And, uh, you know, we as elders have just decided this time probably very mere.
Jonathan Leeman:
Any occasions when she would express your disagreements?
Mark Dever:
I don’t think so. I mean, that would be, that would be so divisive. There might be, but I can’t think of what it is.
Jonathan Leeman:
I think there might be a few.
Mark Dever:
What would be an example?
Jonathan Leeman:
I think this might be one.
Mark Dever:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I don’t want to start running a guerrilla war against the elders.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, no, no, no, like this, you know, brother, yes, age of baptism is a that’s a tough topic and, and brothers and sisters are going to disagree with what’s on best. And even the elders had to work through that. And we found a position that’s kind of a consensus, but somewhat of a compromise position.
And, uh, you know, I might personally want it to be a little older. And you know, but brother Joe is going to want us to be a little younger. And yet what we have here is something that we can all agree to and, and work with.
And so, you know, personally, I can say I’m happily submitting to this and I, I had to call you, maybe you want eight, maybe you want 18. I’d encourage you to do as it were, as I’m doing, and submit yourself to this.
Mark Dever:
I mean, part of what you’re doing there, Jonathan, you’re looking at somebody else’s conscience and you’re making a judgment about where their conscience is on this. Why don’t they feel they’re being obedient to the Lord in this?
Jonathan Leeman:
Okay, let me edit what I said and say, look, if you can, I’d encourage you to submit to this. If you can’t, then I get it. That’s fine. But –
Mark Dever:
Bobby Jamieson in January or February of 2023 preached two excellent topical messages (Part 1 & Part 2) on the conscience at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. So capbap.org. You can listen to those two sermons. I would encourage you to listen to those to try to help educate the conscience of the members of the church. Yeah.
Jonathan Leeman:
No, that’s great. Yeah. I’m with you. I’m with you 98 % of the time. I just want to leave a 2 % category.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. I’m not sure what you said was wrong, but I’m…
Jonathan Leeman:
You’ve not ever done that.
Jonathan Leeman:
I don’t think so. I mean, that’s just, and maybe that’s cause I’m the senior pastor and I’m just particularly aware. Like, oh, I really, if I do that, that just undermines the eldership. I would almost rather be misunderstood and preserve the eldership than I…
Jonathan Leeman:
The only way it works…
Mark Dever:
I thought I thought what you said was really good. So I…
Jonathan Leeman:
You’re inviting them to do as you have done…
Mark Dever:
And to submit to the whole and that you, by conscience
Jonathan Leeman:
And you by conscious, feel like you can do that.
Mark Dever:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Dever:
You guys, you have a small case. Oh my goodness. Look at the time. Okay. Well, it’s been great to have this time with you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Leeman:
And it was good to talk about the pastor.
Mark Dever:
Yes, it was.
Jonathan Leeman:
And disagreeing with. And Lord, give us wisdom for it.
Mark Dever:
Amen.
Jonathan Leeman:
Thank you, brother.
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